Salamander Firedrakes - Super Cost Effective or Bugged ?

[Kerensky]

I think these units would just need a trait to ignore cover (improved siege or whatever).

Trait review is pending. That's really all I can say about that topic, sorry!

[TShirtFlashlight]

So units like the Tauros Scout vehicle and several variants of the Land Speeder should be assault units? I have a hard time wrapping my head around that... These lightly armored units actually depending on being able to fire at infantry and not be subject to retaliatory assault too. It may not be that way in TT with retaliatory actions, but as repeatedly stated, we could not and would not make a 1:1 translation of TT rules.

Well I am not asking for the mechanics to be 1:1 of TT rules (GW would lose tons of $$$ if they allowed that) , just that the internal game mechanics should be consistent. And I believe we were discussing Assault in the context of Infantry units yes ?

I mean , if an Imperial guardsman wearing only a T Shirt with a puny flamer (compared to Termies Heavy Flamer) is able to charge an entrenched position, why a supersoldier equipped with armor designed for close combat assaults and a bigger gun cant do that ? If you say they are too bulky , the Firedrakes have 4 movement range compared to the Steel Legion Infantry 3 movement. And then there's the Salamander Chapter Master unit :

[Curator]

Salamander Firedrakes - terminators unit.
All other terminators unit can assault. Because it is... terminators, you know? Powerfist-things and such
So why one of the terminators-unit can't assault?

It is even more confusing, if you see chapter master of salamanders in action in this game. He is almost same unit (terminator-armor with h.flamer) and can assault.

[Dragoon.]

I think they should, if at all, just have the evasive skill, considering they are fast mobile hit and run units.

[Kerensky]

Tu Shan there has the normal flamer. I dunno what to tell you guys. The standard flamer is an assault weapon. The heavy flamer is a vehicle mounted non-assault weapon. The Firedrakes wield the vehicle mounted weapon, so they aren't assault units.

This entire thread started because the question was asked if they were already 'super cost effective'. If their weapon ignored cover... it would make them even more effective. If we did that, they'd have to be given a price and stats more inline with other Assault units, and they are much more interesting in their current form. In fact, they are quite unique, but still very powerful and very cost effective. No one is accusing them of being weak or underpowered like some people have said about other infantry armed with only a single ranged weapon (who we have buffed 3 patches in a row since launch because of this perception!).

[Dragoon.]

@Kerensky
Speaking of perceptions.
I noticed in my playthroughs several what I would call unit stat inconsistency. Considering they could just look that to me, as you said yourself this is not and never will be a 1to1 of TT.
So I wonder if there is an interest in me writing them up. If not I just bugger off then.


A few examples of what I mean.

Across all factions the Dreadnoughts have as weapon "Power First". Ironclad Dradnoughts instead have"Powerfist". Both have same stats, just different spelling.
That bought back to me the idea that the armor penetration values of Terminator's "Power Fist" and Chainfist" could have been mixed up.

Power Fist has 50% AP while Chainfist has only 25%. But the Chainfist is a weapon specifically designed for Terminators to cut through the thickest of armor plates and bunker steel.
Source see quotes below.
So maybe there are supposed to be two version of the Power Fists in the weapons table. One for Dreadnaught walkers, this large claw, and one infantry version that is an energized, oversized, armoured gauntlet.

Chainfist


Space Marine Terminators often replace their standard Powerfist with the Chainfist for use against enemy armoured vehicles and static defences. The Chainfist is a combination of a Powerfist and a Chainsword which usually protrudes from the back of the hand, just above the knuckles. This weapon is capable of cutting through even the toughest of armour plating, and provides additional armour penetration capability against vehicles and bunkers, though they have little utility against lightly-armoured and more mobile enemy infantry. Chainfists are so massive, encumbering and energy-inefficient that they are normally only ever seen on Space Marines equipped with Terminator Armour. However, there are smaller versions in existence that can be used by unaugmented humans.

Powerfist


Essentially an oversized, armoured gauntlet, the Powerfist not only generates an energy field around it that disrupts any matter it touches, but also enhances the user's strength.The Powerfist provides it user with the capability to completely pulverise enemy infantry and even threaten enemy armoured vehicles and monstrously-sized creatures. It is thus a popular weapon choice within the Imperium when it is available. However, the weapon is cumbersome to use and slows the user down, so that the opponent will usually have the chance to strike out at the user before the Powerfist can land its first blow.

Dreadnought's Power First


Though the Dreadnought's Power Fist shares the same name, it is not at all similar to the melee weapons also called Power Fists used by other armed forces of the Imperium. Unrestricted by size or weight, Dreadnought Power Fists are vastly more powerful than ones carried by Imperial infantrymen, even Space Marine Terminators. The Dreadnought's Power Fist is (like the unwieldy infantry-borne Power Fist and Chainfist) strikingly effective against heavy armour. This, combined with the Dreadnought's own impressive unmodified strength makes the fist deadly to all, even heavily armoured foes like a Space Marine Chapter Master.

[Curator]

The heavy flamer is a vehicle mounted non-assault weapon.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Flamer

For guardsman - on vehicle
For terminators - NO

some pics
https://www.google.ru/search?q=warhamme ... CAYQ_AUoAQ

And, by the God Emperor, why flamer-weapon don't ignores cover?
It is exist for this purpose.

[TShirtFlashlight]

Tu Shan there has the normal flamer. I dunno what to tell you guys. The standard flamer is an assault weapon. The heavy flamer is a vehicle mounted non-assault weapon. The Firedrakes wield the vehicle mounted weapon, so they aren't assault units.

So .. I did another unit comparison check between the Ironclad Dreadnought (Flamer) & Blood Angels Furioso Dreadnought (Heavy Flamer). Ironclad's flamer is an assault weapon while Furioso's flamer is range 1 with terror trait.

I will go eat my words regarding not being consistent with internal game mechanics now.

I guess the main problem is the devs intepretation of the Warhammer 40k weapons into game mechanics vs my expectations of how the weapons work. I mean, in WH40k Dawn of War 2, flame weapons deals full damage to units in cover. This also applies to non WH40k games like Command & Conquer and Company of Heroes. So when I play this game I am left wondering why some flame weapons are different from the others. Though I really think that much of this confusion can be avoided if you put the Assault trait under the weapons stats instead of beside the unit stats. (like Basilisk Earthshaker Cannon's Bulky trait).

Thanks for taking the time and effort in replying Kerensky.

[Kerensky]

Turning Heavy Flamers, the same weapons used by some Imperial vehicles, into assault weapons is not going to help them, it's going to hurt them. This is the primary source of my stubbornness.

All that said, I hear what you guys are saying.

So whenever we get around to that much needed trait review I keep mentioning... I'll see if I can't put a trait on the Heavy Flamers that makes it ignore at least some degree of protection afforded by cover. This seems like the most logical conclusion because it will serve as a universal buff, not a nerf in disguise for units such as the Baneblade variant Stormsword and Tauros.

[Kerensky]

And back to the original topic, keeping that upcoming buff in mind...

I really don't want to make the Firedrakes worse with sweeping nerfs to put them in line with average or below average infantry. After all, Firedrakes are some of the most elite Space Marines the Salamanders have in their arsenal. So probably the only change coming for them is a reduction in squad size from 20 to 15, to put them more inline with other Terminator units. Might move their HP up from 2 to 3 though to also match other Terminators. So it will be a net neutral change. Their firepower output gets nerfed (softened by new trait though!) and their survivability may actually go up. 45 Hitpoint total instead of 40.

[Shrike]

Indeed, two pages about the Salamander Firedrakes and no mention of the vehicle bug? I'm on v1.03 and want to buy them. Seems like a bargain for 425, so let's get them some wheels. Oh, they now cost 925???

[Kerensky]

The Land Raider transport costs 500 points.

[Shrike]

Ugh ... my bad, mistook it for the Rhino.

[Kerensky]

No harm done.

Now that you mention it though, it is a bit expensive. Might reduce it somewhat, thought it is a Land Raider...

[Galdred]

Turning Heavy Flamers, the same weapons used by some Imperial vehicles, into assault weapons is not going to help them, it's going to hurt them. This is the primary source of my stubbornness.

All that said, I hear what you guys are saying.

So whenever we get around to that much needed trait review I keep mentioning... I'll see if I can't put a trait on the Heavy Flamers that makes it ignore at least some degree of protection afforded by cover. This seems like the most logical conclusion because it will serve as a universal buff, not a nerf in disguise for units such as the Baneblade variant Stormsword and Tauros.

I agree on both points. Make flamer weapon somewhat ignore cover across all units.

And back to the original topic, keeping that upcoming buff in mind...

I really don't want to make the Firedrakes worse with sweeping nerfs to put them in line with average or below average infantry. After all, Firedrakes are some of the most elite Space Marines the Salamanders have in their arsenal. So probably the only change coming for them is a reduction in squad size from 20 to 15, to put them more inline with other Terminator units. Might move their HP up from 2 to 3 though to also match other Terminators. So it will be a net neutral change. Their firepower output gets nerfed (softened by new trait though!) and their survivability may actually go up. 45 Hitpoint total instead of 40.

Indeed, I think it would be the best option here too.