Commanded shot - possible rule change ?

[spotteddog]

..... and very thought provoking your thoughts are too John.

FWIW I don't see a huge commanded shot problem - or any huge problem with FOG R to be honest. Its just the artillery issue which appears to be intractible and to be honest I think I can live with that as well. Not said enough but well done RBS in creating the best rule set out there!

Should be all right for umpiring decsions at Britcon now

HH

[madaxeman]

Well one rank is probably the formation that determined horse should fight in to get advantage of overlaps etc. The rules at the moment make it very difficult for more than two bases to be supported. Strange situation when Early TYW Swedish for example used their commanded shot for just this purpose. The marker represents the fact that rather than two bases which give a definite placement with the unit, the marker represents very small body of shot interspersed in the cavalry.
Just my thoughts.
John

Determined horse in a single rank (or even a 3+1) is a pretty aggressive formation to allow you to get the maximum dice at impact.

However if you are on the defensive facing better quality horse and you therefore need the protection from Commanded shot, you can still deploy them 2+2 between the shot.

It also prevents some armies getting better value from their commanded shot than armies who don't have unarmoured/crap-weapon-carrying Det Horse

Still therefore seems eminently sensible to have this mechanic as it currently stands to me.

[marshalney2000]

Subject to another non historical use of commanded shot this week. Three groups in a clump supported by Dragoons advancing down a flank sector against normal foot regiments. The commanded shot shooting on fours and the pike and shot on fives.
John

[nigelemsen]

Subject to another non historical use of commanded shot this week. Three groups in a clump supported by Dragoons advancing down a flank sector against normal foot regiments. The commanded shot shooting on fours and the pike and shot on fives.
John

This could be a double edge sword.... The above situation adds weight to the marker approach (being similar to regt guns). However how many other "individual interpetation" but legal use of the rules that is not strictly historical use are there? Curtail these and you could end up with a very bland set of rules/game. Of course the counter argument is the above situation quoted was down to an initiative field commander ?

Tweaking here, tweaking there, second guessing the rules authors is dangerous. The real question is, do you use fogr to play a very interesting and fun game with a historical flavour? Or are you using fogr as a historical simulation? Me it's a game....

[marshalney2000]

Nigel, I probably expressed myself poorly when I put the emphasis on the non historical nature of the situation. My concern is more of a game balance.
Let us look at the situation of three battle groups of commanded shot firing at a pike and shot firing at long range in the flank sector. The six commanded shot get to fire three bases needing a four to hit. If they get two hits then they cause a cohesion test with -1 as the pike and shot have an exposed flank. This obviously goes to -2 if they happened to get three hits. They also cause a death roll on a two or a thirty three percent chance of the pike and shot losing a base.
The pike and shot fire back needing 5 to hit and only get two dice firing with one dice on two of the commanded shot units. Admittedly, one hit is sufficient to cause a cohesion test on -1 for casualties but there is no death roll due to the unit being only two bases. Even if a commanded shot unit fails the cohesion test it does not reduce the number of bases firing next time as disruption on two bases has no effect.
Ah well, if you cannot beat them then I may have to join them. Where is that Britcon army list?
John

[spotteddog]

What are pike and shot doing at the table edge?
HH

[marshalney2000]

Well if you do not have any mounted then something has to go there. If they do not fight there then they fight further in on their baseline with same result.
Any way I should not complain too much as it was the only unit I lost which was a good swap for the six or so of yours which fled the table.
John

[nigelemsen]

Nigel, I probably expressed myself poorly when I put the emphasis on the non historical nature of the situation. My concern is more of a game balance.
Let us look at the situation of three battle groups of commanded shot firing at a pike and shot firing at long range in the flank sector. The six commanded shot get to fire three bases needing a four to hit. If they get two hits then they cause a cohesion test with -1 as the pike and shot have an exposed flank. This obviously goes to -2 if they happened to get three hits. They also cause a death roll on a two or a thirty three percent chance of the pike and shot losing a base.
The pike and shot fire back needing 5 to hit and only get two dice firing with one dice on two of the commanded shot units. Admittedly, one hit is sufficient to cause a cohesion test on -1 for casualties but there is no death roll due to the unit being only two bases. Even if a commanded shot unit fails the cohesion test it does not reduce the number of bases firing next time as disruption on two bases has no effect.
Ah well, if you cannot beat them then I may have to join them. Where is that Britcon army list?
John

I now see issue... Again moving commanded shot to be an upgrade for mounted bg would remove all of that ...

Mine's in with RBS and as I'm just in it for 6 games against people I don't normally play, my choice can be seen up mez blog... And I know samurai cav light lance are a waste of points largely for an open comp, I like them....

[nigelemsen]

What are pike and shot doing at the table edge?
HH

Ben regularly pushes his french superiors out into the flank sector... To takeaway the mounted motorway run..

[nigelemsen]

Well if you do not have any mounted then something has to go there. If they do not fight there then they fight further in on their baseline with same result.
Any way I should not complain too much as it was the only unit I lost which was a good swap for the six or so of yours which fled the table.
John

Sporrans at dawn

[spotteddog]

Well thgen it wasnt a pike and shot - it was 6 shot. They had it coming therefore.
HH

[marshalney2000]

Makes the outcome even worse than the scenario I outlined. Thank you for supporting my argument with your added input.
John

[marshalney2000]

Actually just remembered I had a regimental gun as well as six shot,!
John

[benjones1211]

Especially if it has a regimental gun, actually moving into the flank after the cavalry have gone passed is even better because they end up with no way out and the regimental gun means they are taking damage from shooting, so they have to charge.

Ben

[spotteddog]

Actually just remembered I had a regimental gun as well as six shot,!
John

and portable fortifications as well now that I remember! No fair! No wonder the dice Gods smiled on the poor little commanded shot!

HH

[marshalney2000]

If it required Divine Intervention then the commanded shot are fate too advantageous. I am tempted to follow your Later TYW Germans for Britcon if they come with Divine Intervention as part of their package.
John

[nigelemsen]

If it required Divine Intervention then the commanded shot are fate too advantageous. I am tempted to follow your Later TYW Germans for Britcon if they come with Divine Intervention as part of their package.
John

My Mori clan and allied friends will have more divine intervention being bit fanatical in helping the. Monks following "Jodo Shimshu"

[nigelemsen]

Especially if it has a regimental gun, actually moving into the flank after the cavalry have gone passed is even better because they end up with no way out and the regimental gun means they are taking damage from shooting, so they have to charge.

Ben

The other reason this is a good tactic of Ben's, is: if your ft bg stays out of the flank sector, it is highly likely you will be getting threaten flank anyway due to the 12" rule, so why not take the space away anyway.

I did spot in the rules something to the effect if the ft bg is in terrian then the 12" rule does not apply. I take it would apply if the mounted bg could charge you in the flank as with any other situation...

[benjones1211]

Hi Nigel

Actually the 12MU from the side edge rule always applies, the terrain rules apply if you have unbroken enemy mtd BG's within 12 MU of the flank of the unit and you have difficult/impassable/Improbable terrain on that flank, or are completely within rough or difficult terrain.

Ben

[madaxeman]

Well if you do not have any mounted then something has to go there. If they do not fight there then they fight further in on their baseline with same result.
Any way I should not complain too much as it was the only unit I lost which was a good swap for the six or so of yours which fled the table.
John

If your army choice didn't have an answer to what is basically a combo of shot-only units and Dragoons advancing on them in the open, I'm not sure the rules are at fault!

Just pointing any artillery in the general direction of 2-pack foot seems to break them instantly whenever I try using them. That "every hit is a cohesion test on a -2" thing is rarely good IMO.