GS v2.20 sub warfare

[Cybvep]

Maybe changes made to subs will balance it out. However, I find it a bit strange that the devs are making life harder for the Axis, especially in 1940. If somebody performs a successful Sea Lion in 1940, an uneasy task if you want to go for 1941 Barbarossa, then I think that their deserves the spoils. It's not that 1940 Sea Lion is happening in every game. In Fortress Europa environment, the Sea Lion is much easier and the UK would have more time to mobilise its troops, so free GARs are somewhat more justified in 1941. I still don't like it, though, because I think that the UK is getting a free lunch, sth which the Allies don't need... I don't know, maybe give Germany sth in return? Volkssturm GARs when the Allies enter the Reich?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Sealion should not be an imprompty invasion you just decide to launch and hope you can succeed. Sealion should be a well planned invasion where you build accordingly (like extra DD's, subs and air units).

The real Germans were not properly planned for a Sealion so they discarded the idea.

I think Sealion should be possible in GS, but you need to make a real effort to succeed. Having 2 extra British garrisons arriving AFTER the Germans land in England will not make a big difference regarding the outcome, i. e. loss of London. What it will do is to delay the time before Germany gets full control.

Earlier playtesting has shown that Sealion was too easy to succeed with especially if you used the Blitzkrieg option. Sealion is a gamble that you have as an option if the Allies lose the BEF in France. If the Allies plays with caution then Sealion should be mainly a threat.

Up to GS v2.1 it looked like most Sealion attempts actually succeeded without even having built any more naval units.

It's too early to tell the effects of the changes made. We're still tweaking the values.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Spawning Volksturm units (garrisons) if Allied or Russian units are in core German territory sounds like an interesting idea. I guess the spawn chance could be 10% per German rail depot / city controlled by the Allies. So late in the war you get 1 Volksturm unit per turn. That sounds like a historical thing.

[Cybvep]

I'm not arguing that Sea Lion should be easy. It should be hard, but it's already quite hard. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't buff the Allies without giving the Axis anything in return.

Volkssturm would definitely be historical and they would serve the same role as free Soviet GARs do ATM, i.e. they could be used as roadblocks. That wouldn't matter much if the Allies have an overwhelming advantage, but in a well-balanced game, it could help the Axis to survive the last few turns and either secure the Minor Victory or at least prevent the Allies from gaining a Major Victory, for example. As far as the spawn rate is concerned, I think that you should be careful with randomness. It's best to have some safeguards, e.g. no more than 3 units per turn and no fewer than 1 unit per turn.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I don't think we're buffing the Allies here. It's not like they're getting better techs or more units (except 2 garrisons if Sealion is launched).

On the other hand the subs will be more potent now. That will certainly help the Axis in the battle of the Atlantic. The downside is that the new naval rules will make it harder to support the invasion force if you make a Sealion. You need a port fast or your invasion will fail. Exactly as the real Germans faced.

Vokt has proposed map changes in Belgium, Holland and Sardinia. Those are implemented in GS v2.2 and will make an invasion slightly easier. Liege is moved 1x N, Antwerp further inland and the port too. The Schelde river is moved etc. I will post screen shots when I get back home.

So Germany can more quickly get to Brussels once Holland is out of the way. So they can more quickly engage the French units. The Schelde will be crossed for sure on turn 1 etc.

The movement of the Antwerp port means that the Allied push towards Germany late in the war will be on a narrower front. So the Germans can more easily use the Rhine river to stop the Allies.

So we have certainly done different things that will help the Axis.

[Cybvep]

Didn't know about the map changes. I thought that you were only considering them =>.

Considering the Sea Lion, remember that a failed invasion means game over for the Axis. Many players will quit early. At the same time, we want the Allied player to feel threatened by a potential invasion, like RL British did. Also, while building ships for 1941 Sea Lion is certainly an option, in 1940, it's rather unrealistic, because you need to take France with low losses, too. You can maybe bring one additional sub in time. Again, it seems that most players think that things are hard for the Axis, so I would be VERY careful about making the life of the Axis player even harder, especially in 1939-1940.

The Blitz have other disadvantages. You gain time, but lose more PPs and MP. Fall of Poland is also delayed by 1-2 turn(s). An experienced player will know what to do with additional time, but for most players, the Sitzkrieg is the safer option.

If you want to make Fortress Europa strategy less appealing, then there are other ways of doing this. 1939-1940 period is crucial for the Axis in ALL cases. ATM the impact of the new naval rules is unknown, so...

[pk867]

We still have to get them to the testers for testing. The sub and naval rules are finished, but we need to discuss
the values and what and if need to be changed.

[Cybvep]

Note that this change:

In the event of Sealion, UK forces in Egypt, Iran will fully activate to be available
for the defense of Britain

will also make the Sea Lion a bit harder, because the UK will have more income in the first, crucial part of the invasion. Just a reminder...

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Italy will activate too and that will counter this. It means the Italian air force can be in France in just 1 turn.

It's not Iran (Persia) that will activate, but Iraq. These countries would activate in August 1940 regardless just like Italy would activate in June 1940. So the effect is minor. It's if you use a blitz invasion of France and a March / April Sealion that it will have some effect.

Usually you take France in June and can launch Sealion in either July or August.

[Cybvep]

I guess that we will never really know unless 2.2 is tested more thoroughly and we see the first AARs...

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Axis players usually quit with the current rules if they fail with Sealion. That is understandable because if you fail then you have ruined your Barbarossa build-up without the benefit of getting England. We can help that.

I think Sealion only happens occasionally when both sides are elite players. Usually if one side made a big mistake or was very unlucky. Even if I don't expect a Sealion I can't take the risk of sending my forces to Africa so I keep them in England with a healthy PP reserve in case Sealion comes anyway. That is the threat you're speaking about. You paralyze the British for some turns.

A good strategy for the Axis is to paralyze the British and instead go after the convoys and maybe Egypt. With the changes to Port Said I think it's slightly more interesting to make an invasion there. Going after Greece too. Getting + 10 extra morale (for Athens + Port Said) for the Italians means their units can be used more offensively. +4 PP's extra in addition to PP's in Egypt will help too.

So it's not like the Germans have to do a Sealion to do well. What we want to have is that they CAN do Sealion if the Allied player is is not careful. If the Allied player is too careful then you can go after convoys and Egypt instead (and/or Gibraltar). We need options for the Axis that will keep the Allied player guessing.

Right now we will test how the map changes in Belgium will affect Case Yellow. A faster collapse of France will help with the Sealion threat.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I guess that we will never really know unless 2.2 is tested more thoroughly and we see the first AARs...

Or we get more beta testers who can try out the different strategies.

[Kragdob]

Italy will activate too and that will counter this. It means the Italian air force can be in France in just 1 turn.

It's not Iran (Persia) that will activate, but Iraq. These countries would activate in August 1940 regardless just like Italy would activate in June 1940. So the effect is minor. It's if you use a blitz invasion of France and a March / April Sealion that it will have some effect.

Usually you take France in June and can launch Sealion in either July or August.

If you Blitz you have Itaians faster than turn 15 so activation of Egypt/Iraq is purely beneficial for Allies, even if according to historical reality.

Maybe UK war effort should be lowered a bit by 4-5 points to balance that?