v2.20 addition. Vote

[Vokt]

It's not that easy to expand the map since the code is coded around a hex resolution of 150x72. It's possible to alter this, but then many class files in both the game and editor must be altered and
lots of functions re-checked. We can expect bugs by doing this and extensive testing to iron out the bugs.

A same hex resolution of 150x72 with a larger map will mean slightly wider hexes?

[trulster]

On the other hand it should be possible for the Germans to invest in the north and actually take Murmansk with enough effort. They just shouldn't be able to surprise attack Murmansks similar to what was possible in GS v2.1 regarding Baku. In GS v2.1 the Germans can invade Turkey and Russia won't do anything. In GS 2.5 (one name for the version) we could have a rule that German presence of corps sized units east of Tromsø would activate Russia for the Allies. Then Russia can rail in units there in time.

Maybe this change not needed since Russia can always place new units in the area (next to cities) even if not active (unless this has been changed too?).

[GPT55]

Back on Norway. Oslo should be easier to capture for the Germans. In real life it was taken in one day by an airborne unit. In the game it take two corps plus air support at least 3 turns, usually more (this is including the turn to move the transports). Maybe there should be an option for an automatic invasion of Norway like I think the AI does.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Norway actually lasted 60 days until it surrendered. Taking Oslo wasn't enough. The real Germans landed several other places too.

The Norwegian King and Government evacuated Oslo and decided to fight on while running away from Oslo. They eventually got to Tromsø (via Sweden) and sailed to London to continue the war from there.

Weserübüng was not an easy invasion and it could easily have gone wrong. E. g. the invasion troops that should take Oslo were onboard Blücher and the heavy cruiser was sunk near the Oscarsborg coastal fortress.

Paratroopers landed on Fornebu airport (not by a paradrop, but by a regular landing).

It's possible i GS v2.1 to land a German paratrooper adjacent to Oslo and capture Oslo in 1 turn. If you land in March 1940 you will use 2 turns if you only use corps units. I don't think that is incorrect regarding how hard the real invasion actually was. Norway did NOT surrender when Oslo fell in the real war.

We decided to not force the Axis player to take all the Norwegian cities on the map because they don't have enough transport capacity to do so. The truth is that Weserübüng only worked in the real war because the British and Norwegians were taken by complete surprise. You can't simulate that in a game because the Allied player will be prepared.

You have the same problem in games regarding the fall of France. France only fell so fast because they went into the German trap (sichelschnitt plan). Allied players in wargames will not rush into Belgium and keep the Ardennes almost undefended. So the games have big problems simulating the 6 week fall of France. That is just 3 turns in GS. I don't think any Allied player lose Paris 3 turns after the assault on Holland and Belgium begins.

[GPT55]

I know you know a lot more than I do about the Norwegian campaign (noting your location), but wasn't most significant fighting over in a week or two?

I certainly understand it's very difficult to simulate what happened in Norway and France in CEaW. However, the fact is the Germans managed to conquer Denmark, Norway, and France in slightly over 2 months--April 9 to June 14 (Paris captured) or June 22 (armistice signed)--which is 3-4 game turns. In the game this is totally impossible. The Axis player must give priority to France. I've never played against anyone who invades Norway in spring 1940, it seems to be something that maybe you take on after finishing France, if you have time. I am aware of the 1939 option, but that backfires big-time against an Allied player that is ready for it (and can easily get a Brtish corp or mech into Oslo before the Germans can attack, the key being the gamey tactic of evacuating Oslo just before the Germans can attack it).

You mentioned some "special rules for Norway" in one of your recent posts. I don't know if you have anything particular in mind, but here are some thoughts:

1. An option to have the German occupation of Norway be automatic, as happens for the AI. Since the Norwegian campaign can really not be simulated in CEaW why not just admit it and not try to?

2. Don't allow Norwegian forces to be repaired, at least not beyond their initial strength (if this is possible with the game engine).

3. Somehow rearrange the map to Oslo can be attacked on the first turn of an invasion.

Here's a suggestion for France: slow down the recovery of Allied morale. If anything it got worse and worse.

I really think that giving the Germans a boost in 1940 would help restore balance in the game. Other than Joe Rock skillfully taking advantage of Morris' mistakes I don't see many elite players doing well as Axis in AARs.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I don't think it's particularly difficult to take Paris in June 1940 or at worst July 1940. That is more than enough time to mop up in the Balkans. You just need to know to to use your forces on the offensive to create a breakthrough. I usually build an extra tactical bomber and fighter prior to Case Yellow. That ensures the Germans have at least air parity and air superiority once the Allied fighters start to take damage.

Taking Norway is actually not hard either. Read this article for good advise:
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30005&p=280400&hil ... tz#p280400

Oslo was actually not so easy for the Germans to capture. They had to sail in the Oslo fjord and bypass the Oscarsborg fortress. We saw how that went. Even as unprepared as the Norwegians were they managed to stop the naval approach to Oslo. That meant the King and Government got enough time to evacuate. If Blücher hadn't been stopped then it's a big risk they would have been captured. Norway would then have surrendered much earlier.

Read here for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Campaign

Before this time we had Allied landings near Åndalsnes and Namsos. The Allied troops tried to liberate Trondheim in a pincer movement.

The Norwegian strategy was to evacuate from the coastal areas and fight inlands in the rough and mountain terrain. The Allied operations didn't go well so they evacuated from southern Norway (south of Trondheim) by the end of April 1940.

A lot of fighting in Norway took place quite a bit later than April 9th. The most famous is the fighting over Narvik where the Germans had to flee towards Sweden. The battle turned when Case Yellow started on May 10th. Despite that the Allies managed to liberate Narvik on May 28th 1940. Allied troops evacuated in Northern Norway on June 8th 1940. The Norwegian forces capitulated June 10th 1940. That is exactly 2 months after the invasion started.

[Cybvep]

The funny thing about Norway is that IRL the fiercest fighting took place in Narvik and Narvik is not even on map in-game .

BTW will you be expanding the map northward in 2.3, assuming that it will be made?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Not sure. First we need to get approval from Slitherine. It's probably best to get GS v2.2 out the door asap. Then let people play and learn how the balance of that version is. Then one can think of other changes, if any.