V2 Printed proof approved!

[timmy1]

Me too.

[navigator]

i too have bought a book platform

[AlexandersChiefEunuch]

Iain, £26.99 is a wee bit disingenuous if you don't mind me saying....actually, it's still disingeuous even if you do mind me saying so, come to think of it.

How many people buy books ex VAT ? Add 20% on and you're looking at more that £32, and that's without paying for delivery. Having got the original FOG AM rules set from Amazon for less that £20 I find myself instinctively recoiling from such an outlay, particularly so close to Christmas.

I had intended to have the rules so as to enter the Plymouth PAW13 28mm FOG competition in February, but, unless I calm down in the meantime, looks like I'll be concentrating on FOGR for the foreseeable future.... until you banish that to cyber space and/or price it out of my reach. Oh well, Games Workshop and Battlefront priced me out of their game systems, so its clearly the way of the future.

Don't fret, I'm almost certain to calm down and end up buying them, but it will be with bad grace.

Martyn

[Torquemada]

Hi Martyn, not sure where you are coming from. £26.99+Vat = £32 doesn't tie in with my invoice. More like £26.99 + P&P = £32

[quackstheking]

We spend hundreds of £'s on our armies and lots of money on terrain (c £18 for a piece of Rubber from Miniature Worldmaker), so why do we worry over the price of a set of rules to bring it all together.

If you're prepared to pay £20 for the rules, then the marginal cost inclusing postage is only £12 - what did your last army cost you?!

Don

[AlexandersChiefEunuch]

Come to think of it...VAT is not applicable to books. So why does the ordering page give the price as $39.99 ex. VAT ? The price excludes a tax which isn't actually applicable ? Now there's a clear pricing policy.

[IainMcNeil]

All prices are without VAT/sales tax. Tax is then calculated based on your region and the local tax laws. I don't know - maybe VAT is applicable on books in some countries. Either way our site to be safe just tells you everything is ex VAT.

This is all handled by the payment provider and not something we have any control over so we just display its without VAT!

[AlexandersChiefEunuch]

Iain, the automatic display might be something you should have a look at if and when you get a moment, because, although clearly in the minority here, the indication that I would have to pay 20% VAT on top of the purchase price meant that I didn't even proceed beyond that page. My reasoning was that I asked myself whether I could really afford £27 on something which in the grand scheme of things is relatively trivial, this close to Christmas. My answer to myself was probably not, but what the hell, I would go for it anyway. Having steeled myself to spend £27 I can't really spare, I saw the '$39.99 ex VAT' message and thought better of it.

There is a serious point here regardless of whether one feels that the absolute price asked is value for money, and that is about being able to make an informed decision on whether to make the purchase. As a vendor with an international customer base I can see why it is more attractive for you to leave the issue of tax and postage and packaging unresolved until the order is actually processed. However, most web-sites allow you to know how much it will cost you overall to have the goods in your hands. From my point of view as the customer it is of no significance what proportion of the outlay goes in sales tax and what proportion in postage. I just want to know how much it will cost me to own this item, and the answer seems to be between £31 and £32. I only know that, though, from others who have already ordered the book.

To those who argue that as other aspects of the wargaming hobby are expensive why am I wittering about the relatively modest cost of these rules, I would say that my major gripe was the one which I have expanded on above, that I want to know the final cost before deciding whether to start the process of buying something. I would add, however, that I am not wholly convinced by the argument that because something else is expensive that absolves every other pricing decision. The thing about Amazon, as well as the item being cheper in absolute terms, is that I can decide when to make my purchase. If you can commit £32 mid-month and with Christmas looming then I deem you fortunate. I, however, have to carefully weigh the desirability of my purchases against what other hobby items I might need or want, and time them just after pay day. Being told buy it now or you'll have to wait on some indeterminate future availability may be good practical advice, but it brings out my stubborn streak. I won't allow myself to be stampeded into a purchase I'm not sure I can afford because of the danger of missing out entirely.

As for comparing an updated rule book with figures,I would say that planning, buying, painting and fielding new figures and armies excites me. Its what I get out of wargaming. I see the rules largely as an overhead; something you have to have in order to play the game. Hence £30 worth of new figures are worth more to me in terms of the intangible value I get from owning them than is an update of a pre-existing set of rules. Also, when I buy figures I know that as long as I don't choose to sell them, then they will be good indefinitely. My Macedonian army will always be useable, though rules and basing systems may come and go. I cannot say that of rules sets.

I have spent some time and thought trying to express my position calmly and objectively in the hope that other forum readers will not simply dismiss my comments as the ramblings of a terminal malcontent for whom nothing is ever good enough. By all means disagree with me, but please don't just dismiss me glibly.

Thanks.

Martyn

[nikgaukroger]

Iain, the automatic display might be something you should have a look at if and when you get a moment, because, although clearly in the minority here, the indication that I would have to pay 20% VAT on top of the purchase price

IIRC in the UK books are zero rated for VAT.

Not that that affects the point you are making.

[IainMcNeil]

I understand the point but its not possible as we don't know the tax laws in every country around the world and have no intention of trying to follow them!

We're working on automating the currency conversion - this should be up next week. E.g. our site will show the prices in £, EUR and $ depending on your location.

[grahambriggs]

I have spent some time and thought trying to express my position calmly and objectively in the hope that other forum readers will not simply dismiss my comments as the ramblings of a terminal malcontent for whom nothing is ever good enough. By all means disagree with me, but please don't just dismiss me glibly.

Thanks.

Martyn

You have indeed; though internet forums (or should it be fora? I can never decide) will often give a reasoned argument a drunken response.

The website saying $39.99 ex vat is a bit misleading. Clearly, no VAT is payable in the UK (though might be elsewhere), but post and packing is. The page this links through to says £26.99 plus shipping, etc. of £4.86. It says delivered by Deutsche Post, which will be a first for Sevenoaks. Looking at the payment site, it seems more designed for digital downloading than physical deliveries.

In terms of whether they have sufficient stock to meet demand after Christmas, well I imagine that's the same with any shop. If there's enough demand they'll no doubt print some more.

[Jilu]

well i am happy to have ordered my book and thank you soon was really soon !

thank you !

[ValentinianVictor]

It's not necessarily true that books are exempt from VAT in the UK, game books incur VAT as they are considered a childrens game which is not VAT exempt.

I got caught like this when I bought some stuff from the USA and customs & excise refused to hand it over until I paid the VAT despite me proving the whole thing was a book with maps. They said that as it was rules for playing a game age 12+, and you could play the complete game just using the book and enclosed maps, then it was classed as a game.

[IainMcNeil]

Our warehouses are in Germany and the US, not the UK hence we use the German postal service. This is the best way to service the entire world.

We are a completely global business and I think there is a lack of understanding of this in the FoG community! We have offices in Italy, France, UK, Canada and the US. We are not really a UK based company.

[Vespasian28]

Books, on the whole, are exempt from VAT but you do get the odd anomaly as mentioned above plus a book with a CD or non book product (like a toy attached to a childrens activity book) will attract VAT on that part.
Audiobooks, including language learning courses, get the full whack of VAT which is why they are so expensive!

[ravenflight]

We spend hundreds of £'s on our armies and lots of money on terrain (c £18 for a piece of Rubber from Miniature Worldmaker), so why do we worry over the price of a set of rules to bring it all together.

If you're prepared to pay £20 for the rules, then the marginal cost inclusing postage is only £12 - what did your last army cost you?!

Don

Whilst I agree with you (I think wargaming has to be one of the cheapest hobbies $spent:hours enjoyed - even if you pay for professional painting) I still have to be canny with my money. I'll not be buying a set of rules until I'm 100% determined that I'll play them - which is sad in many ways, but is the truth of the matter. I was just saying to my new wife that I'd found a possible supplier for 2 BG's of Dragoons that I need to finish my Louis XIV army and her immediate question was 'how much is that?' Less than the book that's for sure, and I really need the Dragoons much more than the book.

I'll play with friends who have the book for a while before deciding. Sorry Slitherine, but you've lost my sale for now. Maybe in 6 months I'll be in a better position financially.

[zoltan]

Our warehouses are in Germany and the US, not the UK hence we use the German postal service. This is the best way to service the entire world.

We are a completely global business and I think there is a lack of understanding of this in the FoG community! We have offices in Italy, France, UK, Canada and the US. We are not really a UK based company.

Wow, bricks and mortar offices in so many places seems like an expensive overhead for a software business in the digital age!

[IainMcNeil]

I guess it depend how big you are. Our staff level has doubled in the last year or so. We released 30 games in 2012.

[navigator]

but as a uk customer i dont really care if you are global. I would just like to see the price of my purchase in pounds, (rather than dollars) with vat displayed correctly if applicable (it appears not with books)and delivery made clear and not complicated (do i want deutch post? or do i care) . My platform is not a book- i am purely buying a book as i dont know what a platform is. I dont know what that means, and then when i place an order i get a message telling me to click to download. (but i thought i had ordered a book... or no i have ordered the wrong thing... oh wait no i havent.

just saying (and tongue in cheek generally).... as i have got too much time on my hands- but then again i am a customer (or does the software world have a different name for purchasers? Third party interfacers?)

[AlanCutner]

At risk of bringing down more comments dismissing my views.

£32 is too much for me to spend on wargames rules (even if they have substantial changes over v1, which no-one has been able to assure me about). I accept others may be comfortable with it. I'll probably buy a download for my laptop and write the important changes into my v1 book, at a third the cost of the book. Would have been far preferable to have an amendments sheet at a more reasonable price.

But cost to me personally is not even my major concern. its what this is doing for the future of FoG and the hobby of wargaming. How many new players will now consider trying out FoG at this price, in the knowledge they may have to fork out the same amount (or more) again for v3? They don't even have the option of buying with discounts through suppliers such as Amazon.

I'm concerned that FoG is becoming a closed market. I would be interested in knowing how many people, over the next year, buy v2 who are not already v1 players.

Note I am not anti-FoG or anti-Slitherine. I am pro-wargames and expansion of the hobby.