Are bow too good or am I just useless

[hammy]

Now armoured keils would work over bow well.

In the open perhaps but in terrain..... forget it.

It would seem that if you have a traditional pike and shot or early western army that if you end up facing bow with lots of terrain you should simply not og anywhere near the terrain and settle for a dull 10-10 draw

[kevinj]

I think any game where the terrain suits one army and not the other is heading either for a draw or a disaster.

I think that we are still at the stage with Fog R that a lot of the wrinkles haven't been figured out yet and certain armies can still have a surprise value.

On the subject of Bow specifically, I think they are benefitting from the fact that firearms cancel armour in melee, which may be putting people off from taking the armoured foot that would really worry the bowmen. However, I do think that Bows are much better value than Arquebusiers, who seem to get a poor deal in every set of Renaissance rules.

[list_lurker]

A keil would lose 1/3 dice in the rough but be on a ++ in melee. A sporter I'd say . They move 2" in the rough but are usually armoured to deflect the shooting.

As for the western p/s vs bow , I'm not sure what you saying there.. It might not be the best matchup for he Europeans. In this papers , scissors, stone conundrum is that such a bad thing. Will the bow player want to sit it out for a 10-10 draw? Also what is going on in the outer 2'

Assuming a 10-10 draw is bit presumptuous.

[daveallen]

I have faced bow heavy armies twice now, once when using Later Swedish and once using early Early Hugenots. In both cases I thought I had a way to make a dent in the bow (who were hiding in rough ground). The Swedish sent detached salvo bayonet infantry to get them and the Hugenots sent gendarmes. In both cases I got shot to pieces on the way in then was unable to make a dent in close combat.

Hammy Hammy Hammy,

you really need to have a word with Madaxeman's Hannibal about this tendency to assault impossible positions. Would you expect to win charging against Romans in a fortified position? Or using MF in the open against Knights? Or running into Jez's Sicilians with Warband Fast?

If your opponent gets enough terrain to hide all his MF Bow in, either find a way round his flank or take the ten points and go get a beer.

That's in competition, of course. In a friendly game shouldn't both players play nice? eg not set up in an impregnable position and expect the opposition to do all the work for no reward. Trying to winkle MF Bow out of terrain with anything other than Swiss, Japanese or Impact Warrior ain't gonna be fun for non-Masochists.

Overall, I'd say the points costs are about right. If you take two particular troop types and compare them in isolation you are ignoring how they work inside the system of an army.

Overall is the way you have to look at it. You need to consider the ability to concentrate force at pivotal points rather than have it spread everywhere. This is why Musket are 40% to 60% more expensive than Bow, and Gendarmes 300% more.

Also, Shot generally deploy in units with Pike, this gives them both the versatility and resilience that Bow lack.

Outside themes, I'd much rather have a balanced 17thC European army than any one trick pony.

Regards,

Dave

[rbodleyscott]

Now armoured keils would work over bow well.

In the open perhaps but in terrain..... forget it.

It would seem that if you have a traditional pike and shot or early western army that if you end up facing bow with lots of terrain you should simply not og anywhere near the terrain and settle for a dull 10-10 draw

Errm James, you have heard of artillery?

[daveallen]

A keil would lose 1/3 dice in the rough but be on a ++ in melee. A sporter I'd say . They move 2" in the rough but are usually armoured to deflect the shooting.

4th rank of Pike only counts in the open so it's only a '+'. But using Superior Swiss, say, you'd take only two rounds of 8 Bow dice at '-' and be unlucky to have to test for cohesion, if you do you'll be +2 for supported and a general, and rerolling 1's. So very unlucky to disrupt and even then disruption is only the same effect as disorder.

Then you hit. Assuming generals on both sides it's 6 v 8 at evens - Swiss do 4, Bow do 4.5. Another possible cohesion drop.

In melee Swiss do 4, but Bow only do 2.66. From here it's only going one way.

Dave

[rbodleyscott]

4th rank of Pike only counts in the open so it's only a '+'

That's only at impact. In melee they do not need to be in open terrain. How long have you been using Swiss, Dave?

(I had forgotten this myself, which rendered my plan less than brilliant against Graham's Swiss at Britcon. OTOH it probably ultimately worked in my favour, as it encouraged Graham to attack my troops in rough going, where, thanks to some spectacularly poor cohesion test dice on his part, my troops managed to win.)

[hammy]

A keil would lose 1/3 dice in the rough but be on a ++ in melee. A sporter I'd say . They move 2" in the rough but are usually armoured to deflect the shooting.

As for the western p/s vs bow , I'm not sure what you saying there.. It might not be the best matchup for he Europeans. In this papers , scissors, stone conundrum is that such a bad thing. Will the bow player want to sit it out for a 10-10 draw? Also what is going on in the outer 2'

Assuming a 10-10 draw is bit presumptuous.

So charging gendarmes into bow in terrain where they will be ++ in melee is silly but doing it with a Keil is sensible even if the Keil will take longer to get there?

I have had people telling me that my idea of taking on bow in terrain with Gendarmes is bonkers but apparently it is reasonable to do it with a troop type that moves slower.

As for the 10-10 draw, perhaps the games would not have been 10-10 but in both cases when I faced bow I would have been far better off to have simply sat back and let my opponent come for me and sadly that is not the kind of thing I would want to do given the choice.

Errm James, you have heard of artillery?

I have but against medium foot bow even if the medium foot bow are happy to stand there in their terrain in range of the guns it will take a battery of 2 guns about 20 turns to break a BG of 8 bow. That is not going to happen in an ordinary game so unless you have a lot of artillery and/or the bow are warriors then you are unlikely to be able to break even one BG of bow with artillery.

4th rank of Pike only counts in the open so it's only a '+'

That's only at impact. In melee they do not need to be in open terrain. How long have you been using Swiss, Dave?

This one raises an interesting point. There seem to be a lot more exceptions and cancelations in FoG:R than there are in FoG:AM. While I am sure they are there for good reason as a new player I am struggling to make sure I get the right POAs.

With AM by the time I had played perhaps 5 or 6 games I rarely looked at the rules/QRS, with R I have a feeling that I will still be checking through POAs and CT modifiers after 20 games.

Consider the earlier comment about cavalry taking a minus 1 on CT when shot by firearms. It only applies to cavalry, so I miss understood and could easily have gotten that wrong in a future game.

It might be a renaissance thing but as I look a little deeper into the factors they seem to be heading off in the direction of 'only on a Thursday in May if you are wearing blue' like certain other games have done.

[ravenflight]

Errm James, you have heard of artillery?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Set yourself up so that you can blat away at one BG of Bow all day. Eventually you'll crack it, and the turns will go really quickly if nothing is moving. Do a pivot and move onto the next. The bow army will eventually go 'stuff this' and come out and play, or lose the game.

[rbodleyscott]

James,

The _only_ games of FOGR that I have seen end in agreed 10:10 draws have been ones where the side lacking in artillery has somehow managed to deploy in such a way that the enemy artillery cannot shoot at them. This is a rare thing to achieve, especially if the side with artillery has brought limbers.

As raven says, you can get through a hell of a lot of turns of shooting if nothing else is happening (in fact an almost infinite number - how long does it take 2 players to throw 5 dice?). Certainly too many to make standing still and sucking up the shooting a viable strategy. If my opponent tried to procrastinate by shuffling his troops, I would complain to the umpire, but thankfully no such behaviour has been apparent in the FOGR tournament scene.

The only reason you are having problems with the POAs is that you are simply assuming they will be the same as FOGAM. They aren't, so you will (shock horror) have to read them. The differences are never gratuitous but are there to enhance the simulation and flavour of the period.

We went to great lengths to ensure that there were no gratuitous differences from FOGAM, but the result is that you will have to read the tables carefully to spot the differences.

If you approach the rules as if it was a completely new set, you should have no problems.

And you know my feelings about "wet Saturday in March" factors, so I am a little hurt that you embarked on this particular line of hyperbole.

[ravenflight]

The _only_ games of FOGR that I have seen end in agreed 10:10 draws have been ones where the side lacking in artillery has somehow managed to deploy in such a way that the enemy artillery cannot shoot at them. This is a rare thing to achieve, especially if the side with artillery has brought limbers.

Another point is that if a player is not building a balanced army (i.e. a Renaissance European army with little or no (if possible) artillery) then you can't expect it to do what a Renaissance European army would have done.

I have to admit to my early lists going 'how little artillery can I take', but that's because I wanted a different style of army. My Louis XIV lists were having 2 light guns because that was the least number of points I could spend.

Perhaps (guessing here) after several competitions I'll have 3 medium guns in one large battery, or 4 guns in 2 batteries. Concentrate THAT on a BG of MF archers and see how long they last. There is a possibility that they will go nova in 2 complete turns. Add to the destruction by cycling firearm mounted or dragoons into the fray and he'll have to do SOMETHING to counter. Maybe that style of game isn't one that you want to play, but if you're playing in a competition you'll have to do things you don't want to do.

[daveallen]

So charging gendarmes into bow in terrain where they will be ++ in melee is silly but doing it with a Keil is sensible even if the Keil will take longer to get there?

I have had people telling me that my idea of taking on bow in terrain with Gendarmes is bonkers but apparently it is reasonable to do it with a troop type that moves slower.

A 4-wide armoured Keil will count as 11 or 12 bases for HpB and is harder to hit than Gendarmes (except fully armoured which are no faster in RGo than HF and are severely disordered to boot). Base losses will hardly scratch a 14 or 16 Keil, but will severely affect a 4-strong Gendarme unit.

Since both are ++ in melee (should have looked at the factors more carefully this morning ) why would you expect Gendarmes to do better?

I'm not saying it wasn't worth trying in a practice/learning game, but now you know...

Dave

[hammy]

James,
The only reason you are having problems with the POAs is that you are simply assuming they will be the same as FOGAM. They aren't, so you will (shock horror) have to read them. The differences are never gratuitous but are there to enhance the simulation and flavour of the period.

We went to great lengths to ensure that there were no gratuitous differences from FOGAM, but the result is that you will have to read the tables carefully to spot the differences.

If you approach the rules as if it was a completely new set, you should have no problems.

And you know my feelings about "wet Saturday in March" factors, so I am a little hurt that you embarked on this particular line of hyperbole.

I admit that last comment may have been a little below the belt but as a player who has little understanding of the period a lot of the POAs are actually being a real struggle for me to make sense of. In AM there is only really one type of troop that negates enemy POAs for weapons (pointy sticks) and one that ignores enemy advantages (heavy weapons).

It is just that to me at the moment there seem to me to be a lot more conditional POAs.

When I was explaining FoG:AM to people everything to me seemed very clean and clear. How much of that was that I understood the period and how much was that the rules were simpler I am not sure. It is just that at the moment I really feel like I need to get a QRS which I genuinely never felt the need for in FoG:AM.

BTW, can anyone tell me why warriors are worse off than medium foot against artillery? There is an implication earlier in this thread that that is the case but I honestly can't find a thing to say so.

[hammy]

Perhaps (guessing here) after several competitions I'll have 3 medium guns in one large battery, or 4 guns in 2 batteries. Concentrate THAT on a BG of MF archers and see how long they last. There is a possibility that they will go nova in 2 complete turns. Add to the destruction by cycling firearm mounted or dragoons into the fray and he'll have to do SOMETHING to counter. Maybe that style of game isn't one that you want to play, but if you're playing in a competition you'll have to do things you don't want to do.

OK, let's do the numbers as I understand them based on 3 guns because that is easier.

Artillery shoot infantry at a - POA, that means 3 guns get on average 1 hit per volley. That will mean there is a 1 in 6 chance of killing a base. In crude terms shooting 3 guns six times as a BG of foot will expect to kill a base. If the BG is 8 bases then you need to kill 4 to break it. That should take 24 shots or 12 turns. This is all assuming that the target does not have the temerity to move out of range or out of arc.

Yes it is something that could hurt the bow but it is hardly going to break the enemy army.

Putting firearm mounted or dragoons near massed bow is just asking for said mounted or dragoons to be shot to pieces. In the games I have played so far against bow perhaps I have been unlucky or my opponents have been very lucky or both but it is normal for me to lose between 1/3rd and half my bases in no time flat.

[kevinj]

BTW, can anyone tell me why warriors are worse off than medium foot against artillery? There is an implication earlier in this thread that that is the case but I honestly can't find a thing to say so.

Do you mean Why or How?

The How is that other BGs take a Cohesion Test if shooting inflicts 1 hit per 3 bases (regardless of its source). Warriors additionally have to take a Cohesion Test if they suffer 2 hits from artillery, regardless of the BG size.

The Why is that as untrained, mostly tribal types, they are not trained to face artillery and it spooks them.

[hammy]

So charging gendarmes into bow in terrain where they will be ++ in melee is silly but doing it with a Keil is sensible even if the Keil will take longer to get there?

I have had people telling me that my idea of taking on bow in terrain with Gendarmes is bonkers but apparently it is reasonable to do it with a troop type that moves slower.

A 4-wide armoured Keil will count as 11 or 12 bases for HpB and is harder to hit than Gendarmes (except fully armoured which are no faster in RGo than HF and are severely disordered to boot). Base losses will hardly scratch a 14 or 16 Keil, but will severely affect a 4-strong Gendarme unit.

Since both are ++ in melee (should have looked at the factors more carefully this morning ) why would you expect Gendarmes to do better?

I'm not saying it wasn't worth trying in a practice/learning game, but now you know...

Dave

I did try sending a 16 base keil into the terrain but the pesky turks contracted a BG of bow without advancing and then moved some janissaries up and my keil was left with the choice of staying where it was and getting shot to bits or charging in at a disadvantage...... (granted not a POA down along the line but the shot would be a POA down and the pike on evens and the Turks are superior).

Actually on reconsideration we both got the pike in terrain POA wrong. It should have been plus for the pike and minus for the shot because pike do count the fourth rank in melee. Even so a BG of 16 bases will get shot by at least 4 dice, 4 dice, 8 dice, 8 dice 8 dice and 8 dice on the way in and that is with no overlaps. there is a very good chance you will lose some bases on the way in and if you lose too many you lose the 4th rank of pike POA.

I still think the moral of the story is if there is bow in terrain and you don't have armoured medium foot with combat skills don't even consider going anywhere near them.

[hammy]

BTW, can anyone tell me why warriors are worse off than medium foot against artillery? There is an implication earlier in this thread that that is the case but I honestly can't find a thing to say so.

Do you mean Why or How?

The How is that other BGs take a Cohesion Test if shooting inflicts 1 hit per 3 bases (regardless of its source). Warriors additionally have to take a Cohesion Test if they suffer 2 hits from artillery, regardless of the BG size.

The Why is that as untrained, mostly tribal types, they are not trained to face artillery and it spooks them.

Thanks Kevin, I didn't notice that one and to be honest unless you have 4 or more guns you aren't likely to run in to it very often anyway. I have no problem with the why, just looking at the POAs and the CT modifiers I could not see it anywhere which would be because it is not in any of the places I looked.

[ravenflight]

OK, let's do the numbers as I understand them based on 3 guns because that is easier.

Artillery shoot infantry at a - POA, that means 3 guns get on average 1 hit per volley. That will mean there is a 1 in 6 chance of killing a base. In crude terms shooting 3 guns six times as a BG of foot will expect to kill a base. If the BG is 8 bases then you need to kill 4 to break it. That should take 24 shots or 12 turns. This is all assuming that the target does not have the temerity to move out of range or out of arc.

Yes it is something that could hurt the bow but it is hardly going to break the enemy army.

Putting firearm mounted or dragoons near massed bow is just asking for said mounted or dragoons to be shot to pieces. In the games I have played so far against bow perhaps I have been unlucky or my opponents have been very lucky or both but it is normal for me to lose between 1/3rd and half my bases in no time flat.

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it.

Firstly, if they move away, where are they moving? They are moving out of the rough ground. Isn't that what you wanted?

Secondly, occasionally, you're going to do two hits on them, and they are then going to have to test at a -ve. If you've got other troops also shooting at them also then they will eventually crack.

Thirdly, perhaps (and I don't mean this to be insulting) the answer is bow are too good or you are just useless. I haven't had to go up against this situation yet, so don't know, but I don't think it's a 'sky is falling' situation (yet).

[hammy]

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it.

Firstly, if they move away, where are they moving? They are moving out of the rough ground. Isn't that what you wanted?

Secondly, occasionally, you're going to do two hits on them, and they are then going to have to test at a -ve. If you've got other troops also shooting at them also then they will eventually crack.

Thirdly, perhaps (and I don't mean this to be insulting) the answer is bow are too good or you are just useless. I haven't had to go up against this situation yet, so don't know, but I don't think it's a 'sky is falling' situation (yet).

The problem I have found when facing bow is that they simply shoot better than any troops I have in my army. Either by virtue of them having significantly higher numbers of bases (because they are really cheap) or because my troops are in mixed units so don't fire with every file.

The Chinese army that has medium foot with light spear bow and regimental guns looks to be very very scary. 39 points for a unit of 6 with a regimental gun looks to be a very good buy.

[MatteoPasi]

Its the old game of paper, stone and scissor (is there in BG ?) :
bow are good vs P&S
P&S are good vs tercios
tercios and armoured Keils are good vs bow