Beer And Pretzels!??

[Answulf]

I have never thought of Beer & Pretzels as an insult, but in my day it typically meant a light-hearted, funny game - not just any old game that is light on rules or strategy. For example, our go-to "beer & pretzels" game was WizWar.

So I personally don't think Beer & Pretzels fits Panzer Corp at all - not because it isn't light, but because it just isn't that funny...

[PvtGrunt]

I am a Wargamer, I have been for 48 years, I was raised on the hex fields of Europe and the Pacific, I will die a Wargamer and a historian.

Well said!

I also started gaming with AH, Blitzkrieg, Stalingrad and Richtoffen's War.

These games often had multiple sets of rules depending on your level. You could play Basic rules (Beer and Pretzels) or Tournament rules (Grognard) in Blitzkrieg, with Optional rules available as well!

You dont need to play the most difficult, rule laden game to have fun.

[Chris10]

I wholeheartedly agree with the OT...apart from what he criticizes I find especially annoying the use of the beer/pretzle argument to reject natural evolvement of the game by adding some new and more complex mechanics (even if only labelled as optional). There is always a few individuals who immediately run rampant about any new suggestion in that direction....

Indeed. A beer and pretzels edition:

uuuuuhhh....where is the "pretzels" ?...oooohhhhh...I seeee...
these pretzels are yummyyummy ...

[MrsWargamer]

I like beer and I like pretzels too (and those aren't pretzels to my knowledge, but they look nice).

I've played a few ftf games of ASL while having a brew (didn't have any pretzels at the time though) and to suggest drinking a beer implies a game is 'simple' is retarded.

What? does being able to drink a beer suggest a beer won't have any adverse affect on the game? It's kinda stupid when you think about it.

I think the proper term for truly 'incredible' wargames possessing vast sums of units needing to be attended to (such as War in the Pacific, or something from the Europa board game series) is properly 'anal'. Yes anal, full of crap in some ways too if the assumption is the detail volume level makes them superior. I own these games, and I don't so much mind the detail level when the detail level appeals to me at the time, but, most of the time I either don't possess the time, or in most cases the space to set them up.

Panzer Corps to use an example (as that is the forum for this game in particular) isn't 'simple' all because it can be explained in a shorter span of time. Nor is it 'simple' all because a person can finish a sitting in less time. It merely takes less time and NOTHING ELSE.

What? does a person think being able to play a turn or two of War in the East makes them better than a fan of Panzer Corps? That's idiotic too. Frankly you are either a good opponent or you are not. And to be honest, I can likely fold spindle and mutilate most wargamers simply because it is an innate skill for me. Yes, suck on it, I am on average a great deal brighter than most wargamers. But I can't play football. No one is perfect everywhere. I know of lots of wargamers that will blather on about the relevant sporting events, but I won't be one of them. I know almost nothing of sports.

Bottom line, a game is only as challenging as the opponent makes it. Thus, if you play most of your games vs the AI, odds are I'd be a bloody great shock against you. And winning is what it's about, not how long a turn took to process or how many units you have to shuffle.

One of the best things to happen to wargaming, was it managed to release designs anyone can play on a tablet as easily as a high end PC. Because it means MORE people can be exposed to our hobby. The worst thing that can happen to wargaming, is morons will maintain only a PC can play a 'real wargame'. Nope, not the case.

Now the 'perfect' wargame is one that can entertain two housewives and a common wargamer. I once played 3 way against my wife and an old friend of mine (also female and my age) in a game of Up Front (boardgame wargame using cards I know you know the game if you are a 'real' wargamer). It can handle 3 persons in an abstract version of the normally 2 person design. They were able to understand the game properly and without a single iota of wargaming experience. Good luck ever getting your wife to not fall asleep playing War in the Pacific.

Those complicated detailed overly long tedious wargames, they are not better, they are just greater sums of boring detail in most cases. Those thinking they are superior, are also likely dull people.

[IainMcNeil]

The wargaming hobby covers a vast array of genres and scales and everyone has their favourite so I think we need to accept that and just let everyone play the kind of games they enjoy best without trying to label them in a derogatory way! Beer & Pretzels I find a little annoying as it implies its not really a wargame while "anal" makes it feel like there must be something wrong with you to play that kind of game. There isn't and it just that we shoulc all do what we like best and not worry that others don't enjoy it!

[mysticfm]

I personally have never considered "Beer & Pretzels" to be a derogatory description for a wargame. In fact, I rather enjoyed "Beer & Pretzels" wargames back in the day, even though I didn't make use of the associated food & drink (pizza was more my speed). For me, the distinction is in the complexity of the rules and the amount of time required to play … and I don't believe that complex rules and lengthy play times are always required to achieve a reasonable reflection of reality, so I reject the idea that "Beer & Pretzels" = "unrealistic/gamey". I simply think a wargame qualifies for the "Beer & Pretzels" moniker if it is possible to enjoy it at the same time that you are snacking on food. E.g., I've tried to play games of Squad Leader over a pizza, and the pizza invariably got cold because I spent too much time pouring over the rulebook for some esoteric detail, so it is clearly not a "Beer & Pretzels" game … and that's not really a compliment to it.

[MrsWargamer]

Much as I try to understand the point of beer and pretzel as a term, I can't get it to be honest.

ASL, I like to eat beer and pretzels while watching my opponent do their turn. A3R same thing, you munch while they take their turn. Axis n Allies, you actually get to eat less in the way of munchies because the turns are often shorter... hurry and take your turn Bob and stop wasting your time eating.

That, and well this will sound arrogant, but I don't measure a game by how complicated the manual is, I measure it by how hard it was to win. And winning in some games supposedly 'simple' can be harder than some game supposedly complicated. Chess is no one's idea of a simple game to win. But even a little kid can be taught how to play.

I have a harder time winning in Axis and Allies than I do in A3R, because the variables and permutations are different.

[DerTroof]

Yes, it very much is a old term from the Avalon Hill Days, just before SPI come to formation. Back then we only had Gettysburg, Stalingrad and a few others. That was when I started about 48 years ago, crap I am 60 now . But it was then, a term that meant "fun evening" though I was too young to drink. As I got older and games got more complex, the last thing you wanted to do was drink whilst pouring over the Monster Gamer ear of SPI and by the time GDW Completed Europa beer was the last thing on our minds.

To call Panzer Corps, beer and pretzel game now, in my mind, means a good fun game that is worth a few hours a night. I like Panzer Corps, it is a good set of games, I also like WITE but they are two different animals. So, I think for us old timers, it simply means fun, you younger guys (god I hate saying that!) who may take it as a slight to your intelligence by saying "Aw it's a beer and pretzel game," --meaning not serious enough to be taken seriously. Keep in mind though that a vast amount of work goes into the algorithms just to get the the graphics to run smoothly, pumping out the table variables in combat is more than just a 1D6 roll. These "new fangled" computer games are exactly what we wanted oh so many years ago when there was no one available to sit across the table from and psyche out. I play these games because all my Wargamer friends are dead, and I appreciate the programmers who sit down to make an opponent come to life, so I can play again.

I am a Wargamer, I have been for 48 years, I was raised on the hex fields of Europe and the Pacific, I will die a Wargamer and a historian. I am not a gamer unless I am playing WoW killing Murlocs, I hate those little bastards.

This is my recollection too. AH used the term to distinguish some of the older, simpler games like Waterloo, Stalingrad and Afrika Korps from more complex ones like Panzerblitz. It was not meant to be derogatory. I think as time passed, however, they began to use the term more loosely, presumably to attract new players to the hobby who might otherwise be scared off by the complexity of some of the more recent games. I even recall one of their brochures describing ASL as a beer 'n' pretzels game!

I used to love those brochures that came inside every game. First they had gold covers, then blue, then full-color in the ASL days... Had a bunch of them collected in a drawer somewhere, but now they're long gone.

Ah, Avalon Hill! RIP.

[mysticfm]

Yes, it very much is a old term from the Avalon Hill Days, just before SPI come to formation.

This is my recollection too. AH used the term to distinguish some of the older, simpler games like Waterloo, Stalingrad and Afrika Korps from more complex ones like Panzerblitz. It was not meant to be derogatory. I think as time passed, however, they began to use the term more loosely, presumably to attract new players to the hobby who might otherwise be scared off by the complexity of some of the more recent games. I even recall one of their brochures describing ASL as a beer 'n' pretzels game!

Ah, Avalon Hill! RIP.

Same here … I was a total Avalon Hill nutcase back about 35 to 40 years ago. I think I owned more than 20 of their games, and still have over a dozen thereof stored away in a tote in my basement.

I think each and every software-based wargame would probably fit under the original definition of "Beer & Pretzels". Not because they are all simple, but because the computer takes care of managing most of the minutia of the rules and allows the player to just play the game, allowing plenty of opportunity for snacks in the process. In fact I personally believe that computers are the best thing that ever happened to wargaming, or at least potentially so.

[DerTroof]

Same here … I was a total Avalon Hill nutcase back about 35 to 40 years ago. I think I owned more than 20 of their games, and still have over a dozen thereof stored away in a tote in my basement.

I think each and every software-based wargame would probably fit under the original definition of "Beer & Pretzels". Not because they are all simple, but because the computer takes care of managing most of the minutia of the rules and allows the player to just play the game, allowing plenty of opportunity for snacks in the process. In fact I personally believe that computers are the best thing that ever happened to wargaming, or at least potentially so.

You're right, PCs definitely revolutionized wargaming, especially by taking care of most of the bookkeeping and rulechecking. Plus, PCs were a godsend for solitaire gamers (like me, most of the time), particularly as AI got better.

Boardgames have their charms though. I enjoy looking at a real map sometimes and it's nice to work with components you can hold. I still have some of my old boardgames like you do, and even buy a new one on occasion. The problem as always is finding someone to play against. (Another advantage computer games offer through online play.)

Boardgames also have a longer lifespan in some cases, because PC games tend to lack support/upgrades after a few years. I wish this wasn't the case. There are a few old PC games I would still play if I had the system to support them. PGII especially - at least until Panzer Corps came along!

[PvtGrunt]

The problem as always is finding someone to play against.

With the old AH games, the big problem for us was coming home from school eager to play turn 12 of a campaign only to find the dog had knocked the table and scattered the 100+ unit counters!
SAVE GAME is definately the best function of PC gaming.

[DerTroof]

With the old AH games, the big problem for us was coming home from school eager to play turn 12 of a campaign only to find the dog had knocked the table and scattered the 100+ unit counters!
SAVE GAME is definately the best function of PC gaming.

LOL


Another area where PC gaming blows boardgaming away is with respect to simulating unit damage/casualties through incremental value reduction. A few boardgames tried to simulate this though multiple counters for each unit (which was a bookkeeping nightmare), but for the most part it was A Elim/A back 2/D Elim/D back 2/Exchange. Not very realistic.