Foot Artillery Charged:???

[deadtorius]

Thats why you have to keep some infantry near the guns then is it.
gotta keep track of cohesion on the gun crews then as it makes it harder to recover if they were wavering when abandoned...

[SirGarnet]

Thanks for clarifying the options and especially the recovery procedure, Terry.

[viperofmilan]

I may be dense or am just not seeing what you are seeing, but I can find absolutely nothing in the rules (and specifically on page 30) that would lead me to conclude that in response to a charge foot artillery has the option to take a test to stand and fire at short range and, if they fail said test, being forced to stand and defend the guns. Could somebody please point me towards specific, clear language that spells this out?

Many thanks.

Kevin

[panda2]

p.30 2nd column 4th paragraph gives stand and fire as an option for artillery units being assaulted.

p.32 2nd column 2nd paragraph under "Defensive Fire",
"If the unit being assaulted chooses to stand and fire, the assaulting unit must "pause" at 2MU from the target and receive fire at that range"

p.32 2nd column 3rd paragraph under "Defensive Fire" deals with CMTs resulting from the fire and states,
"If the test is passed the assaulting unit moves into contact"

Andy D

[viperofmilan]

OK Andy, I follow you so far and thank you for spelling this out for me. I do not have the rules in front of me so please bear with me. Now, where does it say the artillery has to take a test to "stand and fire" in response to an infantry charge? I see where specifically a test is required to stand and fire at medium range in response to any charge, but I am not seeing where a test is required to stand and fire like everybody else does in response to an infantry charge. I concede the point of a test being required in response to a cavalry charge (like infantry has to do), and admit that it makes sense logically. But I'd much rather rely on rules chapter and verse than depend on logic in a game situation.

Still puzzled.

Kevin

[panda2]

Kevin

as set out by others above, unlimbered foot artillery has three options when assaulted:

-Retire, (abandon guns if foot artilley, with no CT required, but only possible if friendly infantry in 2 MU if foot artillery) p.29 penultimate bullet under "Reaction Moves".

-Stand and Fire, p.30 2nd column 4th paragraph which states "Unlimbered artillery must pass a test if they wish to stand and fire. If the test is failed the guns are abandoned." (No range is indicated in the paragraph, but see p.32 2nd column 2nd paragraph under "Defensive Fire", as noted above).

-Fire then Retire (abandon guns if foot artillery) (Requires a CT and can only be used if enemy start more than 4 MU away, if failed guns abandoned and no fire, if passed may fire at medium range, if enemy halted by fire stay with guns, if enemy not halted abandon guns). Set out on p.30 penultimate paragraph.

You seem to be conflating the two seperate options of "Standing and Firing" and "Firing then Retiring", even though they are listed under seperate bullets and require slightly different conditions for them to be possible. The only time that arillery fire at medium range in the assault phase is if they choose to Fire then Retire a point reinforced in the first two paragraphs of the section headed "Defensive Fire" on p.32. Otherwise all defensive fire takes place at close range.

I hope this helps.

Andy D

[viperofmilan]

Andy,

I appreciate all the time you're taking to explain this to me, but I'm still just not seeing it. I'm OK with the three options: that is not my question. Where does it say that foot artillery can take a test to stand and fire at short range, and if this test is failed it stands and defends the guns? This has been presented as one of three options available to artillery when charged. But hard as I try to find this in the rules, I'm only seeing that failed tests = abandon the guns. Where does it say that a failed test to stand and fire at short range results in standing and defending the guns? All I am seeing is that whether you test to stand and fire at short range, or stand and fire at medium range the results of a failed test is abandoned guns.

Kevin

[terrys]

Where does it say that a failed test to stand and fire at short range results in standing and defending the guns? All I am seeing is that whether you test to stand and fire at short range, or stand and fire at medium range the results of a failed test is abandoned guns.

Kevin,
You are quite correct - to quote my previous response:

> You can only voluntarily retire to an infantry unit if it is within 2MU. (taking 1 cohesion loss)
> If there is no infantry within 2 MU, then you must attempt to stand and fire (and/or fight).
> If you fail your cohesion test to stand and fire you will then retire (taking 1 cohesion loss if the assaulting unit is infantry and 2 if they are cavalry).

Perhaps the confusion arises from the words used , hopefully the following is clearer:
> You can only VOLUNTARILY retire from a charge if there is an infantry unit within 2MU. (taking 1 cohesion loss)
> If there is no infantry within 2 MU the guns MUST take a cohesion test.
.....>> If the test is successful the guns will stand and fire (and/or fight).
.....>> It the cohesion test is failed the guns will not fire and will be abandoned instead (taking 1 cohesion loss if the assaulting unit is infantry and 2 if they are cavalry).

There is NO situation where the gunners can fail a test and still stand and fire. (and I don't think anyone is suggesting that).

[shadowdragon]

Where does it say that a failed test to stand and fire at short range results in standing and defending the guns? All I am seeing is that whether you test to stand and fire at short range, or stand and fire at medium range the results of a failed test is abandoned guns.

Kevin,
You are quite correct - to quote my previous response:

> You can only voluntarily retire to an infantry unit if it is within 2MU. (taking 1 cohesion loss)
> If there is no infantry within 2 MU, then you must attempt to stand and fire (and/or fight).
> If you fail your cohesion test to stand and fire you will then retire (taking 1 cohesion loss if the assaulting unit is infantry and 2 if they are cavalry).

Perhaps the confusion arises from the words used , hopefully the following is clearer:
> You can only VOLUNTARILY retire from a charge if there is an infantry unit within 2MU. (taking 1 cohesion loss)
> If there is no infantry within 2 MU the guns MUST take a cohesion test.
.....>> If the test is successful the guns will stand and fire (and/or fight).
.....>> It the cohesion test is failed the guns will not fire and will be abandoned instead (taking 1 cohesion loss if the assaulting unit is infantry and 2 if they are cavalry).

There is NO situation where the gunners can fail a test and still stand and fire. (and I don't think anyone is suggesting that).

Terry, just to confirm...

1) The option for foot artillery of firing and then abandoning the guns when the enemy assault starts from more than 4 MU away is an option whether or not a friendly infantry unit is within 2 MU. If the cohesion test fails the artillery involuntarily abandon their guns. If they pass the test they fire at medium range and abandon their guns. Is this not voluntarily abandoning their guns and applies whether or not any friendly infantry is within 2 MU????

2) When you (involuntarily) abandon the guns after losing a cohesion test, there is still the possibility of losing a further cohesion level if there are any friends within 2 MU who subsequently retire. However, artillery that (involuntarily) abandon their guns after losing cohesion test when there are no friends within 2 MU do not have this specific possibility of losing a cohesion level. Is that correct?

[terrys]

1) The option for foot artillery of firing and then abandoning the guns when the enemy assault starts from more than 4 MU away is an option whether or not a friendly infantry unit is within 2 MU. If the cohesion test fails the artillery involuntarily abandon their guns. If they pass the test they fire at medium range and abandon their guns. Is this not voluntarily abandoning their guns and applies whether or not any friendly infantry is within 2 MU????

The option to fire at medium range and abandon the guns is a differnet selection to the fire at clsoe range and abandon the guns.
Basically there are really 4 choices that artillery can make when assaulted:
a) Abandon the guns immediately - Only if there is a friendly infantry unit with 2MU. No CMT is required.
b) Stand and fire. They must take a CMT, and will abandon the guns without firing if they fail.
c) Fire at Medium range and then abandon the guns if the charge isn't stopped. They must take a CMT - If they fail, foot artillery will abandon the guns, and Horse artilley will linber and retire - Neither will fire at the enemy.
d) Horse artillery can choose to limber and retire - Only if the assault starts from over 4MU away - No CMT is required.

2) When you (involuntarily) abandon the guns after losing a cohesion test, there is still the possibility of losing a further cohesion level if there are any friends within 2 MU who subsequently retire. However, artillery that (involuntarily) abandon their guns after losing cohesion test when there are no friends within 2 MU do not have this specific possibility of losing a cohesion level. Is that correct?

Yes. That is correct. However, artillery that are 'forced' to abandon their guns will lose 2 cohesion levels if being assaulted by Cavalry. There isn't much difference, except that if you elect to stand and pass the CMT - there is a chance that your 6 dice (+/-) might not be enough to stop the charge and the gunners will get destroyed in combat. Guns that are on their own are extremely vulnerable.

[sueznick]

I’m sorry to labour the point but can I clarify what will happen if the Artillery fail the CMT for (b) or if Foot Artillery fail the CMT for (c) and there is no friendly infantry within 2MU? I believe from the earlier replies that they will limber up and retire because they can’t abandon the guns. Is this the case?

Can I also draw attention to something which appears to be obvious but isn’t explicit in the rules? When Artillery retire I assume that they will always be facing in the direction in which they retire (usually away from the enemy). Strict interpretation of the Retiring Units rule would have them facing towards the enemy unless their retire move is at least equal to a normal move, or at least that’s how I read it.

[terrys]

I’m sorry to labour the point but can I clarify what will happen if the Artillery fail the CMT for (b) or if Foot Artillery fail the CMT for (c) and there is no friendly infantry within 2MU? I believe from the earlier replies that they will limber up and retire because they can’t abandon the guns. Is this the case?

Not a problem. - It serves as a good place to highlight anything that isn't clear.

b) Towards the bottom of page 30 (just above the 2 bullet points)
Actions requiring a Cohesion Test: 5th Bullet point under this (RH column):
> Unlimbered artillery must test if they wish to stand and fire. If the test is failed the guns are abandoned.
NB. The entry on page 29 "Retire if artillery" is for a voluntary retire. For a failed test the guns are abandoned regardeless of the presence of friendly units within 2MU.

c) I agree that this isn't as clear - since it is a 'voluntary' retire. However, the guns are still abandoned because that's an explicit part of the rule:
> An artillery unit may attempt to fire at medium range before abandoning the guns.

Can I also draw attention to something which appears to be obvious but isn’t explicit in the rules? When Artillery retire I assume that they will always be facing in the direction in which they retire (usually away from the enemy). Strict interpretation of the Retiring Units rule would have them facing towards the enemy unless their retire move is at least equal to a normal move, or at least that’s how I read it.

Artillery are still subject to the rules on facing when retiring. (as you suggest). Since the artillery can only retire limbered it doesn't usually matter which direction they face.

[shadowdragon]

1) The option for foot artillery of firing and then abandoning the guns when the enemy assault starts from more than 4 MU away is an option whether or not a friendly infantry unit is within 2 MU. If the cohesion test fails the artillery involuntarily abandon their guns. If they pass the test they fire at medium range and abandon their guns. Is this not voluntarily abandoning their guns and applies whether or not any friendly infantry is within 2 MU????

The option to fire at medium range and abandon the guns is a differnet selection to the fire at clsoe range and abandon the guns.
Basically there are really 4 choices that artillery can make when assaulted:
a) Abandon the guns immediately - Only if there is a friendly infantry unit with 2MU. No CMT is required.
b) Stand and fire. They must take a CMT, and will abandon the guns without firing if they fail.
c) Fire at Medium range and then abandon the guns if the charge isn't stopped. They must take a CMT - If they fail, foot artillery will abandon the guns, and Horse artilley will linber and retire - Neither will fire at the enemy.
d) Horse artillery can choose to limber and retire - Only if the assault starts from over 4MU away - No CMT is required.

2) When you (involuntarily) abandon the guns after losing a cohesion test, there is still the possibility of losing a further cohesion level if there are any friends within 2 MU who subsequently retire. However, artillery that (involuntarily) abandon their guns after losing cohesion test when there are no friends within 2 MU do not have this specific possibility of losing a cohesion level. Is that correct?

Yes. That is correct. However, artillery that are 'forced' to abandon their guns will lose 2 cohesion levels if being assaulted by Cavalry. There isn't much difference, except that if you elect to stand and pass the CMT - there is a chance that your 6 dice (+/-) might not be enough to stop the charge and the gunners will get destroyed in combat. Guns that are on their own are extremely vulnerable.

Thanks, Terry. Clear to me now.

[viperofmilan]

Yes, thanks Terry. I even think I understand it now.

Kevin