Artillery

[timmy1]

Dan

That is exactly it. The Imperialists don't want to fight the Swedish Brigades. The Croats give them time to win elsewhere. If the Swedes had LH they could counter in the centre or they could hold up the mounted on one flank while trying to win on another. I played againt a number of good players who used Imperalists armies and found the Croats a real pain, same with some other armies. Not having a counter without having to use battle troops is a killer, and you want your dragoons elsehwere.

[deadtorius]

My LH has a history of destroying enemy Dragoons, as well as LH.
I always buy the Carbine Pistol option, gives them an edge in melee Vs the Miserly Protestants. I find them good for moving up to just within 4 MU to shoot at the opposing horse, who can't shoot back, and you can outrun them. Of course if they roll up they actually get some extra moves on you so you have to weigh off stopping third moves and stay out of charge range or risk the high pursuit roll and try for some shooting hits.

[Three]

Carbine range is only 3", which makes it a shade too close for my liking on the VMD roll. I also find that Dragoons outshoot me regularily, more dice and a greater range

[deadtorius]

Charge them if you catch them in the open, then you can go in at a + on impact and get a + in melee. Just make sure they don't have any big nasties for support near by
I have won against draggons with just 4 LH on several occasions.

[Three]

I lost 3 bgs of mounted in a game last night, all in 4s, all Average, all down to breaking through losses from artllery. I even passed the CTs each turn I accept that if you throw 6 1s for death rolls then it isn't going to be easy, but it felt like being shot at by a French Old Guard Grand Battery

Is there any historical record of a mounted wing being shot to pieces purely by artillery?

5 and 6 at long range, 4-6 at short.

Deadtorious

Charge them if you catch them in the open, then you can go in at a + on impact and get a + in melee. Just make sure they don't have any big nasties for support near by

Ah, yes, there is that IF again

[daveallen]

I lost 3 bgs of mounted in a game last night, all in 4s, all Average, all down to breaking through losses from artllery. I even passed the CTs each turn I accept that if you throw 6 1s for death rolls then it isn't going to be easy, but it felt like being shot at by a French Old Guard Grand Battery

Is there any historical record of a mounted wing being shot to pieces purely by artillery?

5 and 6 at long range, 4-6 at short.

Deadtorious

Really?

The most generous explanation I can come up with is that your opponent had just three artillery pieces and you placed three BGs of LH in front of them. He then got a hit on each and you lost three bases. In his turn he got the same again and you lost three more and thus three BGs.

The odds against this are somewhere in the two/three million to one range so you can rightly feel aggrieved at your luck.

On the other hand, if there were more artillery and/or you persistently left LH in range of it then you should become an honorary member of the Central London Club*

Dave

* Club motto: "It smacks of Incompetence"

[Three]

Don't believe I said it was 3 bgs of LH - 3 bgs, 1 of LH, 1 of unarmoured Cavalry and 1 of armoured mtd Arquebusiers, facing off against a bg of Gendarmes and a bg of armoured lancers. The artillery, 2 bgs of 2 were to the side of the Gendarmes and Lancers and set up at an off-set angle. Opponent moved first. In his firing phase he did 1 hit on the Arquebusiers and I lost a base.

The LH went forward to delay the Gendarmes, and the others moved forward, in the shooting phase he again hit the Arquebusiers and I lost another base, auto-broken. So by the end of the 2nd turn I had lost a bg.

In his next phase the Gendarmes charged the LH, which evaded, and the artillery hit the unarmoured cavalry and I lost a base. The unarmoued cavalry moved up towards carbine range as did the LH, hitting the Gendarmes, which he lost a base to a 1 death roll. However the artillery hit the unarmoured cavalry and I lost a base, auto broken. So by the end of the 4th turn I had lost a 2nd bg

In the next phase he charged the Gendarmes towards the LH, which evaded, however in the shooting phase he hit it with the artillery and I lost a base. In my next turn I moved up my 2nd line of mounted and so as to not get tangled moved the LH towards my centre, still with arc and lost another base, auto-broken. 6th Turn and 3rd bg broken. I was moving them and not just sitting still but for all the difference that made I'd have been as well to leave them standing still.

His cavalry were now masking his guns and my 2nd line of good mounted was able to run over his.

I suppose it would have been less incompetent of me to put the mounted on the other wing where it was only up against a superior LT and an elite LT sitting behind a gully, or in the centre where it would have been up against 2 further average LTs and a Landsknecht Keil with shot wings.

With 12 bgs only 4 of which were foot, by the time he deployed his 1st artillery I had to have deployed 2 mounted bgs, by the time he deployed his 2nd artillery unit I had deployed 5 mounted bgs which he was able to target.

He hit every time he shot and I failed the death rolls. Bad things sometimes happen, but I am still of the opinion that long range artillery fire can be too effective.

[daveallen]

Excuses, excuses!

The fact is that with a 6' wide table you managed to get a quarter of your force trapped in a narrow 6-base wide corridor for long enough to be wiped out.

Done the same thing myself. Won't do it again!

Dave

[Three]

Possibly but the options are limited if you want to fight and not cower in the corners out of range - however it begs the question; are there any historical references that support artillery having such an influence in this period?

[daveallen]

Possibly but the options are limited if you want to fight and not cower in the corners out of range - however it begs the question; are there any historical references that support artillery having such an influence in this period?

Depends on whether there were any commanders dumb enough to leave their horse hanging around in range of guns for an hour or two

On a 24 sq ft table avoiding the 2 sq ft in front of guns ain't difficult for mounted and hardly counts as corner sitting.

If guns target my horse I get them out of there asap, using all four generals if necessary! This following a game in which an opponent opened a flank using four HGs.

For using guns I have two approaches:

If I have more than one battery I want to get maximum return on a big investment so I target infantry. They can't get away easily and I can be fairly sure of breaking a bg sooner or later.

If I have only the compulsory minimum 2MGs I will usually point them towards a flank to try to help my mounted win or, more often, survive.

[madaxeman]

Possibly but the options are limited if you want to fight and not cower in the corners out of range - however it begs the question; are there any historical references that support artillery having such an influence in this period?

Depends on whether there were any commanders dumb enough to leave their horse hanging around in range of guns for an hour or two

On a 24 sq ft table avoiding the 2 sq ft in front of guns ain't difficult for mounted and hardly counts as corner sitting.

If guns target my horse I get them out of there asap, using all four generals if necessary! This following a game in which an opponent opened a flank using four HGs.

I still don't see anyone coming up with an answer as to why Horse are hit on 4's rather than 5's by artillery.

Horse are already more vulnerable to artillery than Foote as they are almost always in BGs of 4, so even hitting on 5's I'd be tempted to deploy my artillery against enemy mounted - but at the moment it;s a no-brainer to do so unless I'm fighting enemy likely to have Kiels or Tercios.

[petedalby]

I still don't see anyone coming up with an answer as to why Horse are hit on 4's rather than 5's by artillery.

Horse are already more vulnerable to artillery than Foote as they are almost always in BGs of 4, so even hitting on 5's I'd be tempted to deploy my artillery against enemy mounted - but at the moment it;s a no-brainer to do so unless I'm fighting enemy likely to have Kiels or Tercios.

Thanks for bringing it back to the original question Tim. For me it's one one of the very few things that doesn't seem quite right in the game.

[donm]

Pete,

For me it's one one of the very few things that doesn't seem quite right in the game.

Sure you don't want to add the capturing and re-capturing of guns with mounted troops to your list?

Don

[deadtorius]

I have also seen my Kuirassiers decimated by enemy guns, poor rolls on my part back in the era of too many 1's.

As for why they are more susceptible to guns, keep in mind that cavalry is composed of 2 living beings, one of which is bigger, underneath the other, and known to be skittish. Screaming artillery balls is probably enough to send some of them off in a panic, and the rider is along for the ride till they decide to stop. (insert rolling of 1's here)

Just a thought on my part having some experience with animals and all.

[petedalby]

Sure you don't want to add the capturing and re-capturing of guns with mounted troops to your list?

Oh go on then.

[madaxeman]

I have also seen my Kuirassiers decimated by enemy guns, poor rolls on my part back in the era of too many 1's.

As for why they are more susceptible to guns, keep in mind that cavalry is composed of 2 living beings, one of which is bigger, underneath the other, and known to be skittish. Screaming artillery balls is probably enough to send some of them off in a panic, and the rider is along for the ride till they decide to stop. (insert rolling of 1's here)

Just a thought on my part having some experience with animals and all.

All sensible, however that's still a fully bottom-up rationale though.

And the end result is that gunnes in FoGR usually are pointed at Horse, when in historical battles they usually were pointed at foote.

[Niceas]

Well, I got a 6stand unit of stradiots to overrun two(!) 2stand units of unsupported artillery in a recent game. The casualties were sort of 'charge of the light brigade' (heh) but was a real neat use of them.

I don't expect to see unsupported artillery again, though.

However, I do see uses in chasing off LF with non-shooty LH.

[Niceas]

Possibly but the options are limited if you want to fight and not cower in the corners out of range - however it begs the question; are there any historical references that support artillery having such an influence in this period?

Well, I think Ravenna in 1512 fits the bill. The French guns causing great execution amongst the Spanish cavalry, forcing them to eventually charge or get shot to pieces.

[petedalby]

Well, I think Ravenna in 1512 fits the bill.

Yes it does seem to, in part, although there is an account of the battle which mentions the horse are ignored in favour of targeting the infantry. But in the 30YW & ECW why are the guns always seemingly lined up against each other or foot if they were so effective against horse?

[Three]

Possibly but the options are limited if you want to fight and not cower in the corners out of range - however it begs the question; are there any historical references that support artillery having such an influence in this period?

Well, I think Ravenna in 1512 fits the bill. The French guns causing great execution amongst the Spanish cavalry, forcing them to eventually charge or get shot to pieces.

Yes, but No but....well, maybe sort of I'd suggest. My understanding is that the Spanish Horse were prompted to engage due to casualties, but that the French guns targeted the Camp and the Infantry, who rather unsportingly hid in the trenches, thus exposing the Horse. It wasn't the guns that overcame the Spanish horse, but the French Horse after the Spanish moved to engage. Either way, it isn't really the guns that dominated the flank, which was what I was looking for. At least the Spanish cavalry got to fight their opponents, mine got blasted to bits even before I got even to charge distance