Extra British fighter when France falls

pk867 · Post by **pk867** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:50 pm

I believe that would be more historical. I can not see the USA in the 1940's idly sit by if Axis forces

were trying to invade England. In my opinion as soon as forces set foot on British soil the USA should activate. It will be at least 3 to 4 turns before any forces arrive. So that the Axis forces would have to be quick.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:55 pm

So I think the right approach to Sealion is to make it hard enough for the Germans to not feel they can crush Britain every time if they go all out. In order to simulate the German problems with transports and amphs then we need to redesign the transport and invasion rules. I'm not sure that is the way to go.

Another solution could be to spawn a Polish fighter at 5 steps in Britain at the historical time (August 1940) regardless of the situation in France and let the Egypt fighter also spawn at 5 steps. This way Britain get a total of 10 steps (same as now), but 5 in England and 5 in Egypt. They can then decide where to build up their fighter strength. If Sealion is coming then they can give priority to the Polish fighter. If not they can build up the Egypt fighter instead.

This change simulates that the Germans have initial air superiority after the fall of France, but extra UK fighters come to the aid so it's changed to parity during the battle of Britain in August and September 1940. This won't help much against a very early fall of France (like March 1940), but it will help against a normal fall time of France like May or June 1940.

I think that change is maybe more historical because UK didn't have a strong fighter presence in Egypt early in the war, but they had a substantial presence in England.

What do you think about my suggestion?

pk867 · Post by **pk867** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:04 pm

That would work for me. What I propose was a hypothetical as many of these different what-if's can be.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:07 pm

Borger,

I agree with what you wrote; especially after having some time to think about an early US entry.

The faster I go the faster that tail I'm chasing goes.

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:13 pm

Although it has been said that Sea lion was an almost impossible operation for the germans many other studies have affirmed that with complete air superiority of the Luftwaffe the landings in the chosen points were have been possible. I mean the landing operation not the whole campaign of conquering UK so, in any case, the german would have had many difficulties for progressing once landed in England. So we have to conclude that Sea lion and the conquest of UK, if possible, would have been a very costly campaign for the germans. This is what it should be reflected in the game so we cannot make Sea lion impossible but also we cannot make it an easy operation for the germans since this wouldn´t simulate what was the situation the in real war.

As I have mentioned above, gaining air superiority was key in Sea lion so that´s why Kragdob suggested a spawned british fighter when France falls thus giving more strength to RAF so this would simulate a little bit better this decisive air battle campaign. Right now the germans have an almost complete air superiority so adding this fighter would mean a little bit more british opposition in the air.

Kragdob · Post by **Kragdob** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:09 pm

If adding another British fighter prevails why not use below solution instead of fixed date and strength?

joerock22 wrote:RAF fighter spawns at the Fall of France, whether or not armistice is accepted, at zero strength, plus the following:

If Poland has been conquered: +1
If Denmark has been conquered: +1
If Norway has been conquered: +1
(any other minor countries): +1

If armistice is rejected: +0
If armistice is accepted: +(French fighter steps remaining / 3)

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:46 pm

I vote for Borger´s suggestion of halving british Middle East fighter strength and to add a british fighter also at half strength after the fall of France. Middle East RAF forces were really tiny in summer 1940 so this change woould make sense. Anyway, probably it is better to spawn it as a british fighter instead of a polish one. We have to keep in mind that the 2 polish fighter squadrons represent 24-30 aircrafts: in CEAW air units scale this represents only 1 step! On the other hand, we already have the canadian fighter at 10 steps for representing the canadian, norwegian, belgian, dutch, and Commonwealth pilots. Because of this reason, IMO may be it is not much accurate to spawn the fighter as a polish fighter wing.

Cybvep · Post by **Cybvep** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:31 pm

Air combat is not land combat. In the air experience can overcome numbers much easier than on land. Just check the statistics of ace pilots.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:39 pm

Look at this article about the Polish Air Force:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Air_Force

You see here that the force was built up considerably in Britain during WW2 and it fought even in the Battle of Britain in August 1940.

The unit started with 4 squadrons, but increased to 16 squadrons during WW2. The British Groups consisted of about 15 squadrons so I think we don't do anything wrong to have the Polish Air Force as a separate unit. It starts out depleted and will become stronger if built up.

Instead of starting the Polish Air Force at a fixed 5 we can use Joe's formula to calculate the initial strength of the unit. We could make it very simple. Strength = Number of countries conquered by the Axis in August 1940. E. g. the historical result:
Poland
Holland
Belgium
Denmark
Norway
France
= 6

In GS Norway and Denmark are often taken out a bit later and that means the strength can be as low as 4 or 5.

joerock22 · Post by **joerock22** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:27 am

Stauffenberg wrote:Look at this article about the Polish Air Force:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Air_Force

You see here that the force was built up considerably in Britain during WW2 and it fought even in the Battle of Britain in August 1940.

The unit started with 4 squadrons, but increased to 16 squadrons during WW2. The British Groups consisted of about 15 squadrons so I think we don't do anything wrong to have the Polish Air Force as a separate unit. It starts out depleted and will become stronger if built up.

Instead of starting the Polish Air Force at a fixed 5 we can use Joe's formula to calculate the initial strength of the unit. We could make it very simple. Strength = Number of countries conquered by the Axis in August 1940. E. g. the historical result:
Poland
Holland
Belgium
Denmark
Norway
France
= 6

In GS Norway and Denmark are often taken out a bit later and that means the strength can be as low as 4 or 5.

I like this; it seems historically accurate. And I also like spawning the Egypt fighter at 5 steps. More choice for the player (where to spend PPs repairing fighters) is usually a good thing!

Morris · Post by **Morris** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:47 am

joerock22 wrote:
Stauffenberg wrote:Look at this article about the Polish Air Force:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Air_Force

You see here that the force was built up considerably in Britain during WW2 and it fought even in the Battle of Britain in August 1940.

The unit started with 4 squadrons, but increased to 16 squadrons during WW2. The British Groups consisted of about 15 squadrons so I think we don't do anything wrong to have the Polish Air Force as a separate unit. It starts out depleted and will become stronger if built up.

Instead of starting the Polish Air Force at a fixed 5 we can use Joe's formula to calculate the initial strength of the unit. We could make it very simple. Strength = Number of countries conquered by the Axis in August 1940. E. g. the historical result:
Poland
Holland
Belgium
Denmark
Norway
France
= 6

In GS Norway and Denmark are often taken out a bit later and that means the strength can be as low as 4 or 5.
I like this; it seems historically accurate. And I also like spawning the Egypt fighter at 5 steps. More choice for the player (where to spend PPs repairing fighters) is usually a good thing!

I like this too !

Morris · Post by **Morris** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:59 am

Stauffenberg wrote: Stalin would probably have more reasons to do something if Britain had fallen to the Germans. But he knew about how WW1 started (Russian mobilization forced Germany to DoW them). Stalin wasn't prepared to go for war in 1940-1941 and would have waited till 1942.

I had read a book declaring the secrects of USSR ,it says that the document proved that Stalin had a invation plan whenever Germans would launch a sealion . He wanted to attack The third Reich 's back .

ncali · Post by **ncali** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:33 pm

I previously voted to leave as is. After reading all of this, however, I favor giving the British a free air unit at only 1 strength (somewhere well out of range of German air). This would give the British nearly half the cost of the air unit. Giving them anything more than that seems like overkill since it is the British, after all, that are supplying the planes. And, instead of giving them the unit when France falls, give it to them sometime in Spring of '40 (to let them build it up if they want).

Extra British fighter when France falls

Should we spawn an extra British fighter when France falls