Moscow 1941, decisively speaking...

[Iscaran]

There should be a checkbox or something for this in the game options - that way everybody is happy, those who are fine with the future already set in stone and those who want more randomness.

I would completely agree to that....I feel the posters "grunt" emotions when such an odd result comes out of battle and all you could do is replay the entire scenario just because of a stupid non-random-generator.

I completely understand why this "feature" might be necessary for MP - but even in MP, wouldn't "cheaters" just write down the dice rolls and replay the turn then with that knowledge (its really quite sufficient to write the "initiative" rolls for that purpose).

[impar]

I encountered a similar issue with my PzIV in the Low Countries.

PzIVD has paper thin armour with too low initiative.
Against the Cruiser MkIV in LC:



Single-shoted 8-strength out of PzIVD. PzIVD hadnt received any hit on that turn before.
My face looking at the screen:

[monkspider]

Going back to the original question posed in the thread, has anyone ever actually beat Moscow 41 decisively? I have yet to do so, it seems to be an impossibility! I haven't found any other scenario that seems hopeless to get Decisive on. I have got a decisive on toughies like Stalingrad, Sealion '40, Bagration and Ardennes '44, but Moscow 41 seems to be just unthinkable.

[monkspider]

A follow-up question, can anyone tell me what effect bypassing Kiev has? Do we attack Moscow earlier in the year and get better weather? Do the Russians have less troops since they presumably don't have the crack Siberian troops at this point? Can anyone tell me what effect that decision has on the scenario?

[MartyWard]

A follow-up question, can anyone tell me what effect bypassing Kiev has? Do we attack Moscow earlier in the year and get better weather? Do the Russians have less troops since they presumably don't have the crack Siberian troops at this point? Can anyone tell me what effect that decision has on the scenario?

I think if you get a DV in Barbarossa and Moscow 41 you get to try Sea Lion 42 if you haven't already won a DV in Sea Lion earlier.

[Fimconte]

A follow-up question, can anyone tell me what effect bypassing Kiev has? Do we attack Moscow earlier in the year and get better weather? Do the Russians have less troops since they presumably don't have the crack Siberian troops at this point? Can anyone tell me what effect that decision has on the scenario?

In Rush to Moscow vs Kiev->Moscow 41'
RtM: Germans start with 6 less AUX units, Soviets 31 less Core/AUX units.
RtM: Germans 256 prestige per turn vs 133 in M41', Russians 112 vs 70 in M41'.
RtM: Germans 1320+(if you go Decisive Barbarossa->Decisive or Marginal [both are 1320] Kiev->M41')1320(2640 total) starting prestige vs 1320 (Decisive Barbarossa) if you go straight to Moscow.

Weather:
RtM: 10% Clouds, 5% Rain vs M41' 0% Bad Weather (however, I believe there is some hard-coded? weather chance depending on the season, as you start RtM in August, M41' in October).

• German Aux & Soviet Core + Aux Values:
  RTM:
  Germans: Aux units: 14 (cost=2472)
  Soviets: Core units: 55 (cost=9040) + Aux units: 1 (cost=210)
  M41':
  Germans: Aux units: 20 (cost=4535)
  Soviets: Core units: 87 (cost=13518) + Aux units: 0 (cost=0)

P.S. So aside from the weather benefits (which may be marginal or huge depending on your luck), there's really very little reason to go RtM.
The Prestige and Experience from Kiev is simply invaluable (Kiev is 256 prestige per turn+the 1320 extra mentioned above+additional 50/100 from Cities/VPs).

And Moscow 41' is quite winnable with Decisive Victory (unless you get very unlucky with weather).

[monkspider]

Woah, that was what I was looking for. Thanks Fimconte. It looks like the earlier attack on Moscow should be a lot easier, I will have to try that on my next playthrough.

[Fimconte]

A follow-up question, can anyone tell me what effect bypassing Kiev has? Do we attack Moscow earlier in the year and get better weather? Do the Russians have less troops since they presumably don't have the crack Siberian troops at this point? Can anyone tell me what effect that decision has on the scenario?

I think if you get a DV in Barbarossa and Moscow 41 you get to try Sea Lion 42 if you haven't already won a DV in Sea Lion earlier.

The divergence paths are illustrated in this thread: Campaign Graph

You need only Decisive in Moscow 41' to be able to Sea Lion 42', but the rest of the path becomes muddled, it's easier to consult with the graph.

[MartyWard]

A follow-up question, can anyone tell me what effect bypassing Kiev has? Do we attack Moscow earlier in the year and get better weather? Do the Russians have less troops since they presumably don't have the crack Siberian troops at this point? Can anyone tell me what effect that decision has on the scenario?

I think if you get a DV in Barbarossa and Moscow 41 you get to try Sea Lion 42 if you haven't already won a DV in Sea Lion earlier.

The divergence paths are illustrated in this thread: Campaign Graph

You need only Decisive in Moscow 41' to be able to Sea Lion 42', but the rest of the path becomes muddled, it's easier to consult with the graph.

Don't you need a DV in Barbarossa to get the Rush scenario though?

[Fimconte]

Don't you need a DV in Barbarossa to get the Rush scenario though?

Yes, but Rush to Moscow isn't a prerequisite for Sea Lion 42'. You can Marginal Win Barbarossa and still go D/M Kiev -> Decisive Moscow 41' -> Sea Lion 42'.

In the end both lead to Sea Lion 42' if you lost or won a marginal victory in Sea Lion 40'/Greece, but only one is crucial.

[MartyWard]

Don't you need a DV in Barbarossa to get the Rush scenario though?

Yes, but Rush to Moscow isn't a prerequisite for Sea Lion 42'. You can Marginal Win Barbarossa and still go D/M Kiev -> Decisive Moscow 41' -> Sea Lion 42'.

In the end both lead to Sea Lion 42' if you lost or won a marginal victory in Sea Lion 40'/Greece, but only one is crucial.

Aha. Thanks. I still have trouble with what leads where.

[Horseman]

This excellant thread should help MartyWard

viewtopic.php?t=27280

[ElIndio]

I played Moscow Oct 41 over the weekend after a decisive victory in Kiev and agree with the OP, absolutely fantastic map. The way the seasons change to autumn and then winter during it are superb

However, also agree that a decisive here is nigh on impossible, the map is too big and the Soviets around Moscow are too well dug in, espeically those defenders that have '15' stats / units (as opposed to the standard 10) .

I had an epic battle but won it after 21 turns (Colonel setting) onto Stalingrad for me but sadly no Sealion this time around in my campaign... Good job I'm currently playing Sealion on MP though, so I haven't totally missed out

[Fimconte]

I played Moscow Oct 41 over the weekend after a decisive victory in Kiev and agree with the OP, absolutely fantastic map. The way the seasons change to autumn and then winter during it are superb

However, also agree that a decisive here is nigh on impossible, the map is too big and the Soviets around Moscow are too well dug in, espeically those defenders that have '15' stats / units (as opposed to the standard 10) .

I had an epic battle but won it after 21 turns (Colonel setting) onto Stalingrad for me but sadly no Sealion this time around in my campaign... Good job I'm currently playing Sealion on MP though, so I haven't totally missed out

I found Moscow to be easy pray for encirclement. Russians do not protect the AA/Artillery from an attack via Serpukhov->Kolomna->Noginsk->Moscow.
And once you take out their Artillery/AA the entrenched Soviets are easy pray for Artillery Shelling/Strategic Bombardment, after which you can attack without worry over the Moscow River with Pioneers.

[taniquetil]

Sl for those of you who actually did get a decisive here, what's the general strategy?

Do you just take your entire tank pile up the East side of the map and infantry/artillery push up the middle? I've won the scenario in 17 turns twice in a row, but getting a decisive requires 14 turns, which I found to be mind-boggling-ly difficult.

[monkspider]

The last time i played this scenario I had, I kid you not, 11 straight turns of mud. From turn 3 to turn 14, it was pure mud, and then after that, it was frozen! Needless to say, I didn't get a decisive that time.

[Horseman]

I think you need a lot of luck with the weather to have any chance of a DV here, just a few turns of Mud will slow you down too much

[monkspider]

I think you need a lot of luck with the weather to have any chance of a DV here, just a few turns of Mud will slow you down too much

Yep, Horseman is quite right. My best performance to date has been with three turns of mud, coming within one turn of a DV, but I actually like the fact that this scenario is so unpredictable.

[taniquetil]

But in terms of overall strategy, how do you go about getting DV? Aside from Hack-34 tanks, the Russian forces are generally not very strong, it's just that the map has too many points to capture in too few turns. Considering the length of time these scenarios take I actually considered using console commands to turn back the counter so I could finish it and move on.

[monkspider]

Well, I have never got a decisive victory quite yet, so I might not be the best guy to ask, but my strategy is create two strong groups, one that goes further to the north and heads toward Voloklamsk and then Moscow, the other takes Yzama and then is supposed to take the objective just south of Volokolamsk. These two forces would then combine for the final assault on Moscow. Yzama can be a tough nut to crack though, so I will sometimes have the northern group take Volokolamsk and the objective that is just south of it and then let the Yzama force move directly on Moscow after it takes it.

I would create a smaller force to take Kaluga, which is kind of the hinky objective that is not really on the way to any of your other objectives.

I would create another smaller force to help take the objective in the far south and then help the auxillary force of panzers take the objective in the far east.

If any of the smaller groups get done with their jobs in time, of course, try to wheel them toward Moscow. The important thing is to try to start the assault on Moscow itself as soon as possible. But even the best laid plans can be defeated by weather, which is what will determine whether you will succeed more than anything. Getting even a marginal victory on that game that had 11 straight turns of mud felt like one of my greatest achievements ever in this game.