Changes in french North Africa and Middle East scenarios

[Schnurri]

Leridano is correct but the only solution is for the French to keep their GARs in NA which weakens the French line or increase the number of GARs in France at start where the Allies will probably still move their NA Gars to the homeland and delay the Axis conquest of France. Perhaps one could increase the Homeland French GARs by 3 and make a slight increase in the morale drop to compensate?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I believed that these Free french units spawn in case of a declined armistice anyway so I suggested those 2 french garrisons in Casablanca and Mareth for the concrete scenario in which axis player delays intentionally the capture of Paris for getting for free all empty cities North Africa. So I don´t understand free french units spawning at half strength in case of a armistice declined since actually they all spawn at full strength in that case.

Only the new Free French units will spawn at strength 5. The already existing French units will remain at 10 strength. The point is that these new units are quickly formed and haven't had time yet to be built up to full strength. Those are emergency garrisons the French would gather from the locals in the area, foreign legion units etc.

Just tested in a hotseat game in 2.01.11 that Free french units spawn at 10 steps in case of a rejected armistice. So I don´t see the reason why they are now downgraded to half strength.

New Free French units did not spawn in North Africa before v2.01.13. In v2.01.13 the Free French units spawn on the turn the armistice is rejected. That is an Axis turn. The next turn is Allied so the British can repair the units up to 8 steps before the Axis can even attack French North Africa.

[gerones]

Leridano is correct but the only solution is for the French to keep their GARs in NA which weakens the French line or increase the number of GARs in France at start where the Allies will probably still move their NA Gars to the homeland and delay the Axis conquest of France. Perhaps one could increase the Homeland French GARs by 3 and make a slight increase in the morale drop to compensate?

Personally, I don´t use to move none of the french garrisons in North Africa because of the new changes in french armistice. It is up to the allied player to do this.

No axis player will find worthy enough to invade North Africa with all of those free french garrisons since it will take him months to achieve it (the brits can also send reinforcements via Persian Gulf transportation loop). So delaying the fall of Paris and actually sending italian and german naval transports close to empty North African ports (escorted by italians subs and surface ships) is the more profitable strategy.

[gerones]

Can someone with 2.01.11 check via hotseat if the free french units spawn or not when french armistice is rejected? I just want to know if it is just me or not.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

In v2.01.11 the French units already on the map were changed to Free French. This will still happen and those units will remain at the strength they had before France surrendered.

So the change is that all empty cities and fortresses in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia will get a 5 strength garrison with an efficiency drop due to the fall of France, just as all the other French units.

So the Allies will be STRONGER after the change than before. The main change is that the Axis can't sail into empty ports anymore.

The new Free French units will only spawn in French controlled hexes so if the Axis take some cities before then these won't get any.

[peterjfrigate]

Forgive my density (I blame the Chianti if I am missing something) but wasn't Leridano's main point that the Axis can delay occupying Paris, and so still be able to sail into unoccupied NA ports? I don't see how adding GARs *after* Paris falls makes much difference.

On the other hand, the UK can send GARS to NA early in the war if they think it's important, so why reward them for sending every man-boy with a pitchfork to the Belgian frontier?

[zechi]

Just one comment concerning the activation of Spain. Why don't we stick with what happened in history?

In the real war Hitler and Franco met in October 1940 at Hendaye (French-Spanish border) after the Fall of France and negotiated about a Spanish entry of war. Franco made demands Hitler was not willing to fulfil and the alliance failed.

But if Hitler hat met the demands, Spain would have most likely had entered the war on the side of the Axis (However, some historians argue that the demands were a bluff and Spain would never had entered the war on side of the Axis). The Spanish demands were not only territorial demands at the expense of Vichy France, but also the fortification of the Canary Islands as well as large quantities of grain, fuel, armed vehicles, military aircraft and other armaments.

Right now Spain enters the war if French North Africa has been conquered. This could simulate the fulfilment of the Spanish territorial demands, but I think this would not be sufficient to force an entry of war of Spain according to the historic demands mentioned above. Franco rightfully feared that the British and or USA would attack Spain or at least occupy the Canary Islands. Therefore it would also have been necessary that the Germans offered large quantities of military ressources. This could easily be simulated through a payment of a large amount of PPs to "buy" Spain into the Axis alliance. Read here what wikipedia says about it:

Hitler and Franco met at Hendaye, France on 23 October 1940 to fix the details of an alliance. By this time, the advantages had become less clear for either side. Franco asked for too much from Hitler. Among Franco's demands in exchange for entering the war alongside the alliance of Germany and Italy, Franco, among many things, demanded heavy fortification of the Canary Islands as well as large quantities of grain, fuel, armed vehicles, military aircraft and other armaments. In response to Franco's nearly impossible demands, Hitler threatened Franco with a possible annexation of Spanish territory by Vichy France. At the end of the day, no agreement was reached. A few days later in Germany, Hitler would famously tell Mussolini, "I prefer to have three or four of my own teeth pulled out than to speak to that man again!" It is subject to historical debate whether Franco overplayed his hand demanding too much from Hitler for Spanish entry into the war or if he deliberately stymied the German dictator by setting the price unrealistically high. Also, Abwehr chief Wilhelm Canaris, who secretly relayed information to Franco about the German plans, might have convinced Franco not to agree to Hitler's demands.

Spain relied upon oil supplies from the United States and the US had agreed to listen to British recommendations on this. As a result, the Spanish were told that supplies would be restricted, albeit with a ten week reserve. Lacking a strong navy, any Spanish intervention would rely, inevitably, upon German ability to supply oil. Some of Germany's own activity relied upon captured French oil reserves, so additional needs from Spain were unhelpful.

From the German point of view, Vichy's active reaction to British and Free French attacks (Destruction of the French Fleet at Mers-el-Kebir and Dakar) had been encouraging, so perhaps Spanish intervention was less vital. Also, in order to keep Vichy "on-side", the proposed territorial changes in Morocco became a potential embarrassment and were diluted. As a consequence of this, neither side would make sufficient compromises and after nine hours, the talks failed.

In December 1940, Hitler contacted Franco again via a letter sent by the German ambassador to Spain and returned to the issue of Gibraltar. Hitler attempted to force Franco's hand with a blunt request for the passage of German troops through Spain to attack Gibraltar. Franco refused, citing the danger that Great Britain still presented to Spain and the Spanish colonies. In his return letter, Franco told Hitler that he wanted to wait until Britain "was on the point of collapse". In a second diplomatic letter, Hitler got tougher and offered grain and military supplies to Spain as an inducement. By this time, however, Italian troops were being chased from Cyrenaica and the Royal Navy had continued to show its freedom of action in Italian waters. Britain was clearly not finished. Franco responded "that the fact has left the circumstances of October far behind" and "the Protocol then agreed must now be considered outmoded".

Therefore I propose the following:

1. Any time after the Fall of France until the entry of war of the US the Axis player can try to “buy” in Spain as an ally. He would need to pay a high price for it (for example 250 PP or perhaps even more?). If Spain is bought into the Axis, this would be at the expense of Vichy France. Vichy France should immediately join the Allies. For the price of 250 PP + 50 Oil (or more) all Spanish military forces should be at 10 steps, symbolizing the military resources the Germans did send to Spain. Furthermore, the Canary Islands become a fortress.

2. Should the Axis player do a successful Sealion and occupy Britain, then the price for “buying” in Spain should be considerably lower (perhaps 100 PP), as Britain would be “on the point of collapse” and Spain would become an Axis ally for a much lower price (probably of course).

3. After the entry of war of the US, Spain cannot be bought into the Axis alliance, symbolising the fact, that the Spanish would now fear US interferences or attack on Spanish soil.

[PionUrpo]

Franco's demands at Hendaye were so completely over the top that I don't see why it should be added as a possible way to bring Spain to Axis. The reject armistice --> take North Africa way is IMO enough, although adding Suez as a condition might be a good idea to raise the bar.

3. After the entry of war of the US, Spain cannot be bought into the Axis alliance, symbolising the fact, that the Spanish would now fear US interferences or attack on Spanish soil.

This would be a good addition to the currently existing Med strategy (if it's not already). If UK somehow manages to keep Spain out of the war until US joins then Franco wouldn't join anymore even if all the conditions are met.

[zechi]

Franco's demands at Hendaye were so completely over the top that I don't see why it should be added as a possible way to bring Spain to Axis.

My point is, that this is not really a historical condition. Why should Spain join the Axis, when the Germans and Italian got their hold on Vichy territory? The Spanish wanted these territories for themselves and saw them as their sphere influence (at least morocco). In fact the Spanish would perhaps have been felt ingored and be upset if the Germans and Italians would have invaded northern Africa and included the Vichy territories into their respective empires.

And of course the demands at Hendaye were over the top from a German point of view, but this is a "what if" scenario. What if Francos demands would have been met? What if Hitler accepted them? I doubt that Spain would then have any reason not to join the Axis.

Right now I do not see why Spain should join the Axis if the Germans and Italians get their hold on North Africa and perhaps the Suez Channel. The Axis would then not have anything to offer Spain for entering the war, as it is very doubtful that Hitler/Mussolini would have given Spain control of Morocco and other Vichy territories after they have fought and succesfully conquered them.

[PionUrpo]

Franco's demands at Hendaye were so completely over the top that I don't see why it should be added as a possible way to bring Spain to Axis.

My point is, that this is not really a historical condition. Why should Spain join the Axis, when the Germans and Italian got their hold on Vichy territory? The Spanish wanted these territories for themselves and saw them as their sphere influence (at least morocco). In fact the Spanish would perhaps have been felt ingored and be upset if the Germans and Italians would have invaded northern Africa and included the Vichy territories into their respective empires.

And of course the demands at Hendaye were over the top from a German point of view, but this is a "what if" scenario. What if Francos demands would have been met? What if Hitler accepted them? I doubt that Spain would then have any reason not to join the Axis.

Right now I do not see why Spain should join the Axis if the Germans and Italians get their hold on North Africa and perhaps the Suez Channel. The Axis would then not have anything to offer Spain for entering the war, as it is very doubtful that Hitler/Mussolini would have given Spain control of Morocco and other Vichy territories after they have fought and succesfully conquered them.

Sure it's not really historical but to me it's fair enough as a gaming possibility.

I see it this way.

Benny certainly wouldn't have given any newly acquired territories to Spain but in the situation Germans do most of the taking (Benny can have Tunis and perhaps parts of Eastern Algeria for his 'New Rome'). Adolf has (or so he thinks, kick the door nonsense etc...) Russia and has little interest in 'worthless' African turf, I don't see why he wouldn't exchange it for an alliance with Franco even if Wehrmacht did the fighting. They would give French Morocco and some part of Western Algeria to Spain and this combined with lessened UK influence in the area would 'compel' Franco join.

While this isn't particularly realistic scenario, I think it's more realistic than Franco joining at Hendaye (yes, even though Hendaye did really happen). Without the British effectively kicked from the Mediterranean he would see the insanity of joining with the Germans.

Of course this is just my opinion

Btw, would you want the Hendaye option instead of the current Casablanca option, or both as a possibility?

Gamewise I think there's already enough options with '41/'42 Barbarossa, Sealion, Mediterranean as it is. IMO, while things are fairly nice already, balancing all those is/will be a b**** and adding more will further complicate issues.

[zechi]

Benny certainly wouldn't have given any newly acquired territories to Spain but in the situation Germans do most of the taking (Benny can have Tunis and perhaps parts of Eastern Algeria for his 'New Rome'). Adolf has (or so he thinks, kick the door nonsense etc...) Russia and has little interest in 'worthless' African turf, I don't see why he wouldn't exchange it for an alliance with Franco even if Wehrmacht did the fighting. They would give French Morocco and some part of Western Algeria to Spain and this combined with lessened UK influence in the area would 'compel' Franco join.

I do not think that this is properly simulated right now, as the relevant territories remain in Italian/German occupation, even if Spain joins. In your hypothetical scenario at least Morocco should be ceded to Spain and spanish forces should occupy the country. Furthermore, as Axis player you already has the option to change your "interests". In contrast to the historic timeline the game fully allows to ignore the Soviet Union and wait until the Soviets declare war (if this is a sound strategy is another question), i.e. in GS the Axis player can shift "his interests".

I think it's more realistic than Franco joining at Hendaye (yes, even though Hendaye did really happen). Without the British effectively kicked from the Mediterranean he would see the insanity of joining with the Germans.

Perhaps, but I think it is the most likely entry of war for Spain. The meeting at Hendaye is a historic fact. Would Hitler have accepted the Spanish demands, then I do not see how Spain would have been capable of resisting to enter the Axis alliance. As Axis player in GS you should be able to give what Franco asks for, even if the price is high. This is especially true if you choose not to do a Barbarossa in 1941, but instead you intend to hit the British as hard as possible.

Btw, would you want the Hendaye option instead of the current Casablanca option, or both as a possibility?

From my point of view the Hendaye option should replace the current option.

Cheers Zechi

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Forgive my density (I blame the Chianti if I am missing something) but wasn't Leridano's main point that the Axis can delay occupying Paris, and so still be able to sail into unoccupied NA ports? I don't see how adding GARs *after* Paris falls makes much difference.

On the other hand, the UK can send GARS to NA early in the war if they think it's important, so why reward them for sending every man-boy with a pitchfork to the Belgian frontier?

The Allies can empty Paris and by doing so enforce the armistice offer being triggered. So Germany can't delay the fall of France just to be able to grab as many hexes elsewhere as possible.

So the French North African hexes falling to the Axis will fall before June / July 1940 and since Italy joins in June it means maybe only Tunis will be within range.

I think it's fair that the Allied player takes a slight risk sending the garrisons to France from French North Africa.

Regardless of that you have to remember that there are other cities that will be garrisoned if the armistice offer is rejected like Sfax, Mareth and Constantine. So if the Axis player has to land units from Italy to move towards Casablanca there will be some stumble blocks there. This should give the Allied player enough time to at least send British units to Casablanca to defend there.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I do not think that this is properly simulated right now, as the relevant territories remain in Italian/German occupation, even if Spain joins. In your hypothetical scenario at least Morocco should be ceded to Spain and spanish forces should occupy the country.

This is not correct. When Spain joins the Axis the hexes in French Morocco and Gibraltar will get to Spanish control and not German / Italian once these hexes are occupied or were already occupied.

The point is that we're talking about a hypothetical situation. The Hendaye meeting is not very relevant because Vichy France was already created and the Allies were quite strong at the time. So Franco had probably no interest joining the Axis, but wouldn't say no outright to Hitler. it was better to make so crazy demands that Hitler himself had to accept that there would be no deal.

In GS v2.0 we've made a prerequisite that the armistice offer is rejected. That means that Germany will be in control of all of France and could continue to fight in French North Africa. It means all of continental France is neutralized and that there is something to fight for in French North Africa.

I think we need to make sure that the option of adding Spain as an Axis ally is a real possibility and not something that would never happen.
We've already altered the conditions a bit so Free French garrisons pop up in every city in French North Africa. That will make harder for the Axis to make an easy conquest.

Also remember that by rejecting the French armistice offer there will be 2 French BB's, 1 DD, 1 sub and maybe 1 fighter on the Allied side trying to prevent the Axis taking Casablanca.

I think we have to make sure we don't restrict the possibilities so much that we don't give the Axis a fighting chance. I don't think we need to force the Germans to pay PP's to sway the Spanish. Remember that the Germans need to protect Spain from Allied invasion and that means they must send German units to Spain. Those can be simulated as the units Franco demanded as help.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I believe that it's a big risk for Germany trying to get Spain on the Axis side. The Spanish units you get won't help you very much except as garrisons in France, Spain and North Africa. Germany will get some extra PP's to compensate and that's important, but they also need to send units to Spain to keep the Allies at bay after USA joins the Allies.

By going after Spain the Germans spend valuable time that could be used for a concentrated attack on Egypt / Iraq. So the conquest of Suez and Baghdad will take longer. Even worse is that Barbarossa won't be effective in 1941. So Germany is hoping that the conquest of Iraq and the oilfields there will make it possible to hold the Russians at bay in 1942 and beyond.

The extra French units from the rejected French armistice offer means that you can expect a clash with the Allies in French North Africa early 1942. That would activate the Free French forces near Agadir and you will have to fight hard to hold the territory in French North Africa. The Allies will probably land in either Portugal or Spain and that would keep many Axis units contained there instead of fighting in the east front.

If we make it even harder to get Spain to join the Axis I think nobody would do it. It's already a high risk operation.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I think we should try using the options we have now in v2.01.13 before making further changes. That means we should not add Suez as a requirement for the Spanish activation.

The only change I think would be a good idea is to require that USA is still neutral for Spain to join the Axis. This will mean the Axis have a window from the Summer of 1940 to November 1941 to get Spain on their side. Spain would never have joined knowing that USA was actively fighting the Axis. So I will make a minor update to game.class so USA being neutral is a prerequisite.

[gerones]

Suez canal was mentioned by Franco in Hendaye as an important condition to enter the war. Franco demands some territories in Morocco but it seems that he says to Hitler something like this: "You can´f offer anything when it is not yet in your hands". Hendaye conversations lasted 9 hours in which Hitler crashed again and again into Franco´s wall negatives of entering at war. No way to buy anything here.

So the only way I can see (as a spanish) that Spain could join the axis is in a scenario in which there are the minimal risks for Spain because of joining the axis. So if the Axis controls both North Africa and Suez Canal then Franco would have had much less fears about Canary Islands since in such a scenario the british would be so overwhelmed about the loss of Suez Canal that they would surely forget about Canary Islands.

[PionUrpo]

Fair points zechi. I still think Franco would want to actually know the situation is favorable, i.e British very much weakened, before commiting to an alliance (as opposed to promises of territory + material help). But that can be debated for a long time.

Anyway, does someone happen to have an actual list of the amounts of raw materials/supplies/armaments Franco demanded at Hendaye? I've always been under the impression that they would've been sorely missed by Germans, or even critical, but never seen any actual numbers.

[Schnurri]

It seems there are some strong feelings about possible historical alternative realties one way or the other vs. gaming variations. Can this simply be a check box where Turkish and Spanish possible activations are turned on or off?

[gerones]

You can empty Paris hex to force a french surrender but it seems that it last 3-4 turns from you leave Paris to armistice is offered by the french. You can´t always guess that your opponnent is going to delay the fall of Paris. So these 3-4 turns are precious for the italian and german transports to sail to empty North African ports.

[zechi]

Anyway, does someone happen to have an actual list of the amounts of raw materials/supplies/armaments Franco demanded at Hendaye? I've always been under the impression that they would've been sorely missed by Germans, or even critical, but never seen any actual numbers.

This would be interesting indeed. I could not find any detailed list as well. In the French wikipedia 100.000 t of wheat are mentioned as one demand. It seems this is backed up by the Spanish wikipedia. Both versions refer to following Spanish article as a source: http://revista.libertaddigital.com/1-qu ... 67998.html

Perhaps leridano could give us a short feedback if more details of the Spanish demands are explained there.