Random effect

[TheGrayMouser]

Well the OP is confused about Mass Attack. Once you understand that it is okay.

Now, if want to bring up the subject of Random Generator......

I too agree that it needs to be toned down.


You haven't seen anything yet until you play the Allies in MP.

The RNG just kills the Allies. Why? Because their units are weaker and it takes time to get into position to counter attack or attack at good odds.

Then the dice roll and you get crapped on very often. It leaves the Allies to defensive roll most of the time as a failure in combat due to RNG leads to sever risk and exposes your units to counter attack where often you loose two units because you did a mass attack once with 3 kills to one or greater on your previous units. When the RNG kicks in, after the first attack on a mass attack the two remaining units can not attack at favorable odds because the Allies units stats are weaker.

As Axis you feel the pain but is is okay most of the time.

razz1, how are you relating the "random dice" to the allies be weaker? If they are weaker, it is due to their stats , not the RNG

[Razz1]

Because when odds are 4 kills to 1 and it reverse to 3 kills for you and 1 or none to the enemy...
you can NOT recover from such a loss because Allied unit statistics just plain suck compared to Axis.

If the same thing happens to an Axis unit they can usually shake off any counter attack as they are much stronger.

You have to play MP as Allies to see how devastating the RNG is to them.

[Wings]

but you cannot get a computer to be perfectly random.

This might be a bit off topic, but why? I'm bad at mathematics but I've always faced this problem.
It doesn't matter if it was when I was programing in BASIC back in 1982 with a GE Mark 1 or playing a game in 2010, I don't have a perfect random routine. Programmers are always using tricks.
Could someone explained me this, please?

Tricks? Nobody needs tricks to generate a random number as long as the random number is properly generated, for example based on a clock. I don't see the issue here.

[Desertf0x]

Here's how I think it works:

There's an infinite row of dice rows generated when you start a level. These are set from the beginning on and never change.

Example: You attack with a unit and it shows you 0:3 for you in the preview thingy, but when you attack you roll some very bad dice ( check with L afterwards ) and it turns out 1:0 against you. Thanks god you saved, so you reload ( cheater !! ) and attack again and ooops .. same result, no matter how often you reload.

Now you attack with a different unit, but uh oh, it rolls the exact same dice. The dice are differently generated for air and land units though. At first I found this odd, but I figure the devs have implemented to prevent sort of save-cheating, e.g. saving and reloading until you get a statisfying result ; )

I think this is a very good implementation, but on the bad side it gives you pre-knowledge of the next dice roll.

[Razz1]

So you are complaining about cheating again?

[Brue]

Well the OP is confused about Mass Attack. Once you understand that it is okay.

lol Razz1, where you read it that I mentioned or talked about mass attack effect from the game?

I haven't played yet MP for PCorps, but just reading what you guys saying and to join that part of discussion, one question:
If we have random seed on the start, someone could reload numerous times the save and try to find the best result of attacking, which depends only on order of attacking troops, isn't it? If devs want to protect the MP like this, there are always other ways to protect save file and prohibit reloading. This way it (random) spoils the game.

But not protection like present one, which brings me to:

I think what the OP wants to say is that the "luck" effect (pseudo-random) dice rolls is much too heavy to allow for planning.

Some part of luck is important but I too have the feel that it is too large atm.

Exactly.

And that's the way it is in Panzer Corps as well. But it's not as in chess, where an attacking piece ALWAYS defeats a defending piece. Just like in real life, there is a chance an excellent outfit will be caught with their pants down and massacred by a hastily erected militia. History is full of examples of simple folk fighting to the last man, and elite warriors running away like frightened children. Usually the best fighter will win, but this is not always the case.

You missing the point mate. I agree what you said here, but we have now situation that simple folk fight to the last man only cause on the distant part of front (not in any case connected to the mentioned simple folk) some other encounter happened, and in other case they run off only cause that distant unconnected encounter didn't happen. The same goes for that elite unit, or any unit on the battlefield.
Bye, bye reality

[TheGrayMouser]

Well the OP is confused about Mass Attack. Once you understand that it is okay.

lol Razz1, where you read it that I mentioned or talked about mass attack effect from the game?

I haven't played yet MP for PCorps, but just reading what you guys saying and to join that part of discussion, one question:
If we have random seed on the start, someone could reload numerous times the save and try to find the best result of attacking, which depends only on order of attacking troops, isn't it? If devs want to protect the MP like this, there are always other ways to protect save file and prohibit reloading. This way it (random) spoils the game.

But not protection like present one, which brings me to:

I think what the OP wants to say is that the "luck" effect (pseudo-random) dice rolls is much too heavy to allow for planning.

Some part of luck is important but I too have the feel that it is too large atm.

Exactly.

And that's the way it is in Panzer Corps as well. But it's not as in chess, where an attacking piece ALWAYS defeats a defending piece. Just like in real life, there is a chance an excellent outfit will be caught with their pants down and massacred by a hastily erected militia. History is full of examples of simple folk fighting to the last man, and elite warriors running away like frightened children. Usually the best fighter will win, but this is not always the case.

You missing the point mate. I agree what you said here, but we have now situation that simple folk fight to the last man only cause on the distant part of front (not in any case connected to the mentioned simple folk) some other encounter happened, and in other case they run off only cause that distant unconnected encounter didn't happen. The same goes for that elite unit, or any unit on the battlefield.
Bye, bye reality

No offence but get some sleep you are playing too much! How the heck you are coming to the conclusion that an anti cheating measure is causing too much "random" yet under the same breath are saying its predetermined... this ,make no sence and is a complete non issue, Just play the game and no matter how the dice are rolled, they are rolled and if you just play and dont reload the game to buck the system it doesnt matter how they are rolled or when!

Example: a deck of cards is preshuffled right? what are your odds of drawing black or red? 5050 right?, now flip a coin which is of course NOT preflipped, 5050... No difference (unless you cheat)

People cant figure out exactly how the seeding works? Thats the point, you arnt suppose to know exactly how the seeding works, the developers certainly arnt going to say.

I cant understand how some appear to believe this development team ( who have spent so much time on this game which is clearly a labour of love, has huge expecations and audience, and whom have openely explained that the vast # of sales and people who play this game do so for SINGLE PLAYER only) , would break the game just to prevent cheating for a minorty of the community.

Lastly, some have posted that the prerolled dice are somehow scewing the precombat odds or expected outcomes, whatever you want to call it. howver that is just a guestimate of the known values of both units (combat stats experiance entrenchment levels etc) What is not factored in, which is why its just an estimate, is the final initiave score (both unts roll for additional initiative ranging from 0 to plus 2), if a rugged defence is triggered , or if an unspotted artillery unit provide support fire.

This is not something to worry about! cheers!

[Razz1]

MP games are protected against cheating by reloading.

Plus big Brother Slitherine is watching you. X number of reloads and bam your kicked out of the game.

[El_Condoro]

My understanding is that you can't reload an MP game after you have done an action of some sort. In a post I made about being able to replay the replay I was told that as long as you haven't done anything you can close the turn and then reload it to get the replay. I assume that means if you *have* done something the reload can't be made.

[Kissaki]

Because when odds are 4 kills to 1 and it reverse to 3 kills for you and 1 or none to the enemy...
you can NOT recover from such a loss because Allied unit statistics just plain suck compared to Axis.

If the same thing happens to an Axis unit they can usually shake off any counter attack as they are much stronger.

You have to play MP as Allies to see how devastating the RNG is to them.

I may be a bit slow, but I still don't understand how this is not the stats' fault. Why do the Allied stats suck compared to Axis? And as this is indeed the case, wouldn't you expect the Allies to get butchered at every turn?

Or to put it another way: if you improve the Allied stats, so that they don't suck (which they shouldn't, anyway, for the most part, even in Poland), wouldn't that take care of this issue?

[TheGrayMouser]

My understanding is that you can't reload an MP game after you have done an action of some sort. In a post I made about being able to replay the replay I was told that as long as you haven't done anything you can close the turn and then reload it to get the replay. I assume that means if you *have* done something the reload can't be made.

When you exit out of MP without completing your turn I believe the data is saved at that point and sent up to the server, doesnt matter how many times you reopen/close after that, the game will be the same. I am pretty sure the random dice seed was introduced because cheaters found a workaround this, the seed closed that breach.

[TheGrayMouser]

Because when odds are 4 kills to 1 and it reverse to 3 kills for you and 1 or none to the enemy...
you can NOT recover from such a loss because Allied unit statistics just plain suck compared to Axis.

If the same thing happens to an Axis unit they can usually shake off any counter attack as they are much stronger.

You have to play MP as Allies to see how devastating the RNG is to them.

I may be a bit slow, but I still don't understand how this is not the stats' fault. Why do the Allied stats suck compared to Axis? And as this is indeed the case, wouldn't you expect the Allies to get butchered at every turn?

Or to put it another way: if you improve the Allied stats, so that they don't suck (which they shouldn't, anyway, for the most part, even in Poland), wouldn't that take care of this issue?

I am still not sure what Razz1 means by this either Early British tanks are slapping the Panzer truppen around in my current camp. game... Also, it appears Stukas dont seem to have the same tank busting kick like they did in PG.... Overall I am finding this game much harder than I expected (good thing)

[Rudankort]

When you exit out of MP without completing your turn I believe the data is saved at that point and sent up to the server, doesnt matter how many times you reopen/close after that, the game will be the same. I am pretty sure the random dice seed was introduced because cheaters found a workaround this, the seed closed that breach.

When you exit an MP game, it is saved to server, so that you can continue to play where you stopped last time.

However, you can attempt to cheat by terminating the program via Task Manager/PC reboot/whatever, so that the game does not get saved to server properly in case you got some really bad combat results, and then after restart you can reload the game and try a different combat order to get better odds.

However, the server tracks the "balance" of saves and loads and if loads happen much more often than saves, the person doing this might get banned.

As for the random seed implementation, it does help a little bit, but still reloading will give you an advantage.