Non-flank Charge Contacting Flank

[nikgaukroger]

OK, so turn 90 and then shift up to half a base.

You can't shift and turn - basic movement rule.

[kevinj]

You can't shift and turn - basic movement rule.

That rule is on page 45 and is mentioned in the context of "free" shifts in general movement. Does that also apply to shifts allowed on page 75 in relation to joining a combat as an overlap? It seems to me that if you can't turn at the end of the move to end in overlap, and restrict shifts, that we're back into the realms of fiddly geometry that we were all happy to escape from.

[nikgaukroger]

You can't shift and turn - basic movement rule.

That rule is on page 45 and is mentioned in the context of "free" shifts in general movement. Does that also apply to shifts allowed on page 75 in relation to joining a combat as an overlap? It seems to me that if you can't turn at the end of the move to end in overlap, and restrict shifts, that we're back into the realms of fiddly geometry that we were all happy to escape from.

The shift mentioned on page 75 is one of those covered by page 45 - so yes it does apply.

This hardly brings us into the realms of fiddly geometry.

[shadowdragon]

I agree that according to the definition of a flank / rear attack that LH A cannot charge the flank of the enemy, but from the above there appears to be a view that in accordance with the rules as written LH A can't join the combat as an overlap. If that's so, then something is very wrong.....or to put it another way, "if that's the law, then the law is an a**".

[philqw78]

Its not my view. BG can move into contact to join an existing melee as an overlap. So can move then turn to end in that overlap.

[kevinj]

The shift mentioned on page 75 is one of those covered by page 45 - so yes it does apply.

I've just re-read page 45 and yes, it's covered, my mistake.

But I'm with Shadowdragon, if the BG cannot move to overlap, something is wrong.

[hammy]

By the look of it A can get one base into the fight as an overlap with a wheel and shift. What it cannot do is wheel, contract and shift.

If it contracts so the left hand two bases become the front rank and then advances so the front left corner is 80mm from the line of the flank of Z and then wheels I think it will end up in an overlap possition.

[philqw78]

But can it turn Hammy. If not why not.

[zoltan]

Someone who thinks A can move into overlap please put up a step by step description of the move, preferably with nice photos.

[hammy]

But can it turn Hammy. If not why not.

Because you can't shift if you turn and as far as I can see there is no way to turn and then simply wheel into position.

[philqw78]

But can it turn Hammy. If not why not.

Because you can't shift if you turn and as far as I can see there is no way to turn and then simply wheel into position.

You don't need to shift. You move into contact then turn. There is nothing wrong with that in the rules.

[hammy]

But can it turn Hammy. If not why not.

Because you can't shift if you turn and as far as I can see there is no way to turn and then simply wheel into position.

You don't need to shift. You move into contact then turn. There is nothing wrong with that in the rules.

How does the LH BG in the picture move to contact?

Wheel towards and then when at 90 advance to contact and then turn??

[philqw78]

Yep

[shadowdragon]

It seems to me that there is no need to turn to get into a legal overlap position.

LH A can wheel (counter clockwise) so that it's front is parallel to the fronts of LH B and LH Z. Unfortunately it would have to shift by more than a half-base width since the distance between the front left corner of LH A is under 2.5 base widths and it's width is 3 base widths.

However, LH A can contract by one base (it is not in anyone's restricted zone) and then wheel (counter clockwise) until parallel to LH B and LH Z, shifting by less than one-half base width to end in side edge to side edge contact, which looks like LH A's front rank base would be in full side edge contact with the front rank base of LH Z.

No?

Contracting frontage by 1 or 2 bases, with an advance of any length is a simple move; and an advance can include a single wheel.

[philqw78]

Moving into overlap is not restricted by the Restricted Area of other enemy BG, and it is not subject to the restrictions that apply to charges.

[shadowdragon]

Moving into overlap is not restricted by the Restricted Area of other enemy BG, and it is not subject to the restrictions that apply to charges.

True, but contracting is restricted. Depends on whether or not the contracting is seen as a part of the move into overlap or something that happens first and then the move into overlap.

The section on page 75 specifically mentions the exemption of no CMT needed for wheels, etc. but doesn't mention contracting.

(Personally I'd wheel to get into flank charge position and than slam LH Z the following turn. You'd miss 2 melee phases with 2 extra dice but the charge is an automatic cohesion loss. Guess it would depend on what else is happening.)

[philqw78]

True, but contracting is restricted. Depends on whether or not the contracting is seen as a part of the move into overlap or something that happens first and then the move into overlap.
The section on page 75 specifically mentions the exemption of no CMT needed for wheels, etc. but doesn't mention contracting.

"Such a move is not affected" are the words. The rest are different sentences about other exceptions.

(Personally I'd wheel to get into flank charge position and than slam LH Z the following turn. You'd miss 2 melee phases with 2 extra dice but the charge is an automatic cohesion loss. Guess it would depend on what else is happening.)

But the target LH could escape easily by choosing which BG to treat as its pin, then move 7 MU away.

[shadowdragon]

True, but contracting is restricted. Depends on whether or not the contracting is seen as a part of the move into overlap or something that happens first and then the move into overlap.
The section on page 75 specifically mentions the exemption of no CMT needed for wheels, etc. but doesn't mention contracting.

"Such a move is not affected" are the words. The rest are different sentences about other exceptions.

(Personally I'd wheel to get into flank charge position and than slam LH Z the following turn. You'd miss 2 melee phases with 2 extra dice but the charge is an automatic cohesion loss. Guess it would depend on what else is happening.)

But the target LH could escape easily by choosing which BG to treat as its pin, then move 7 MU away.

I was assuming LH B and LH Z are already in contact/close combat so LH Z could not escape. Doesn't matter as it's not germane to this discussion.

Agree that a contraction should be allowed due to the exemption from restricted zones. Isn't the intention here that fiddly geometry, restrictions, etc. not prevent a BG moving into combat?

I also agree that LH A can wheel until perpendicular to LH Z's front, move to contact (front edge to side edge) and then turn to be in side edge to side contact with LH Z as a valid overlap position.

I certainly would be unhappy with an interpretation that a BG in a position like LH A is not allowed to charge into contact and also not allowed to move into overlap. If some are interpreting the rules that way than perhaps some clarification is needed in the FAQ and V2.

[zoltan]

In the photo below, LH A and LH B are friendly light horse BGs. LH B is already in frontal contact with LH Z.
LH Z is an enemy light horse BG.

Back to the original post. LH A can move into overlap in the manoeuvre phase as follows (a la page 75):

1. The front right base of LH A drops back
2. LH A (which is now 2 x 2) advances making a simple wheel pivoting on its left front base
3. When LH A's side is parrallel to LH Z's side (probably with a small gap between the two BGs) it stops
4. LH A then shifts sideways (to its right) to make a flush side edge to side edge contact with LH Z

[nikgaukroger]

Because you can't shift if you turn and as far as I can see there is no way to turn and then simply wheel into position.

You don't need to shift. You move into contact then turn. There is nothing wrong with that in the rules.

How does the LH BG in the picture move to contact?

Wheel towards and then when at 90 advance to contact and then turn??

Well it would not then break the no shift with a turn rule

As it would not end with the moving BG's front edge in contact with enemy I suspect this is OK - but don't have rules with me to check.

The objection, I think, would be that when it contacts the moving BG would not be in an overlap position and so could not make the move. Is the intermediate position relevant?