Overrun attack

Steakenglisch · Post by **Steakenglisch** » Wed May 25, 2011 8:34 am

Maybe you can implement overrun only as leader skill, a really rare leader skill ... so it wouldnt change the game balance?

heinrich · Post by **heinrich** » Wed May 25, 2011 2:51 pm

Steakenglisch wrote:Maybe you can implement overrun only as leader skill, a really rare leader skill ... so it wouldnt change the game balance?

Hmmm why should overrun be a rare leader skill?

Basically it´s the best opportunity to "simulate" the blitzkrieg or very fast running attacks and (if succesful^^) advancing tanks. No other unit is cappable of combining fast (relative seen) mechanized moving with devastating weapons AND taking ground.

If it´s possible for the arty to move&fire in every desired order it should be possible to allow tanks, that they are moving while shooting and suppressing enemies. Only that would be consequent in relation to the super flex arty^^ measured to pg

myness · Post by **myness** » Wed May 25, 2011 6:22 pm

Based on the last few comments, perhaps all we need is the ability of a tank to capture a hex after an attack, maybe with a restriction on it if they have exhausted their movement?

I actually think the overrun idea might result in improper tactics - finishing small pockets of resistance is not the job of armored spearheads. I do see that those who liked the old feature are looking for some kind of armored breakthrough mechanic. I need to check in-game for ZOC effects, but does armor have fewer restricitions when moving in hexes adjacent to enemy units?

Steve

wino · Post by **wino** » Wed May 25, 2011 7:50 pm

Since this is betatest maybe just add overrun, even using 2 different methods, release new beta and let testers play a bit with this new feature. It is hard to talk about game balance without checking idea during game play.

I general I like overrun as a nice bonus for tanks. This game is PANZER corps, so tanks should be best units - not Junkers as in original Panzer General (sometime know as Junkers General )

skarczew · Post by **skarczew** » Wed May 25, 2011 9:52 pm

I haven't played PG2, so my opinion may be wrong ...but with maps at strategic scale, allowing to run with tanks 1-2 more hexes is a bit unrealistic.

Instead of strenghtening Tanks I would like to see something that would allow Anti Tanks (especially non self-propelled, and cheap self-propelled - like Hetzer), Level Bombers to be more viable in current gameplay.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Wed May 25, 2011 10:11 pm

Level bombers are actually quite viable. I personally prefer them over tactical bombers for a variety of reasons.

heinrich · Post by **heinrich** » Wed May 25, 2011 10:13 pm

skarczew wrote:I haven't played PG2, so my opinion may be wrong ...but with maps at strategic scale, allowing to run with tanks 1-2 more hexes is a bit unrealistic.

IMHO this depends at which scale exactly the map is designed... and you are right an additional move of two hexes would be too much but that´s not the point. There have to be a special move for tanks after the succesful "overrun" of an enemy unit... just to stop and stand still is unrealistic as well. But now we are at the same point like everytime... to find a way to "simulate" a specific behavior with a common or limited ruleset (in a very comprehensible way, though).

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Wed May 25, 2011 11:39 pm

You know.......... I didn't want over run.

Then after some thought and a few days... it is really bad to have over run.

Why?

Supply. Supply is bad enough, have a unit overrun and get one hex in rear = Game over.

Why? The units in the rear can not supply!

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Thu May 26, 2011 12:44 am

Razz1 wrote:You know.......... I didn't want over run.

Then after some thought and a few days... it is really bad to have over run.

Why?

Supply. Supply is bad enough, have a unit overrun and get one hex in rear = Game over.

Why? The units in the rear can not supply!

New supply model coming out with the next BETA. Stand by!

tnourie · Post by **tnourie** » Thu May 26, 2011 12:46 am

Units in the enemies rear is the whole point of armor, after breakthrough by infantry at the schwerpunkt, the tanks charge through, finish off any minor resistance (overrun) and burst into the enemies supply columns!! This is the nature of tank warfare. Tank to tank battles were not as common as you might think, they were designed to take advantage of breakthroughs and exploit the enemies weaker rear structures.

This is why overrun is a needed ability. It's what tanks are for!

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Thu May 26, 2011 12:55 am

Kerensky wrote:
Razz1 wrote:You know.......... I didn't want over run.

Then after some thought and a few days... it is really bad to have over run.

Why?

Supply. Supply is bad enough, have a unit overrun and get one hex in rear = Game over.

Why? The units in the rear can not supply!
New supply model coming out with the next BETA. Stand by!

10 hexes from city?

Obsolete · Post by **Obsolete** » Thu May 26, 2011 12:24 pm

dshaw62197 wrote:If my memory serves me correctly, the overrun feature was in both PG2 and PG3. It's not a feature that I'm eager to see in PC... but if it is included, I agree with the posters above who say it should be a rare event (I like the idea of attaching it to a hero/general), and only possible against units at "1" strength.

This does not make sense, and is more non-sensical than anything.

So a rinky-dinky Stuart of strength 2, is immune to over-run, meanwhile a King is going to get over-run if in the same hex.

Huh...?

OmegaMan1 · Post by **OmegaMan1** » Thu May 26, 2011 1:07 pm

This does not make sense, and is more non-sensical than anything.

Good morning to you too, Obsolete.

As I said in my post, I really don't want to see overruns in PzC. In PG2 & PG3, units were set in their size. However, in PzC (as in the original PG) unit sizes fluctuate depending on scenario. Thus, while a brigade being overrun is possible, the idea of a division or corps suffering overrun is truly nonsensical. While PzC aims to be an accessible and fun game, having game mechanics that allow for such absurd occurances would definitely seem out of place. Not to mention the fact that it would also lead to some "gamey" tactics in multiplayer games.

Thus, if overrun has to be implemented, keep it a rare thing that is more a bonus than something a player can count on to happen time and time again. Perhaps instead of restricting overruns to single point strength units (which I admit could lead to the abnormal events like the Tiger vs. Stuart issue you mention), maybe overruns could be instituted as a percentile event that is based on (a) the attacking unit's strength, (b) the defending unit's strength, and (c) the model/unit type involved. So, for a 10-strength Tiger to overrun a 1-strength Stuart could be a 75% possible event, while a 10-strength Stuart overrunning a 1-strength Tiger could have a 20% possibility of success. In addition, unit experience should count as well -- a battle-hardened, 5-star experienced unit should have a better likelihood of fending off an overrun than a no-experience "green" unit.

But I think with all the added design considerations involved, it would be best to leave the whole overrun concept as something to be explored in future PzC expansions, but left out of the initial release.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Thu May 26, 2011 4:31 pm

I think they should either be a core part of the game maechanics or not in at all.

At this stage I woudl prefer not to have them as it could cause issues with the gameplay which is pretty much spot on for me right now. Maybe experiement with them post release.

heinrich · Post by **heinrich** » Thu May 26, 2011 6:08 pm

To not be able to overrun a strength one (1 means: not existing anymore!!!) unit with a tank (especially inf) is totally illogical and irrational.

Enough said.... oO

skarczew · Post by **skarczew** » Thu May 26, 2011 6:51 pm

heinrich wrote:To not be able to overrun a strength one (1 means: not existing anymore!!!) unit with a tank (especially inf) is totally illogical and irrational.

Enough said.... oO

This is not Real Time pSeudostrategy, hexes have width of hundreds km sometimes. Do you want to run over every tree and bush in that area?

heinrich · Post by **heinrich** » Thu May 26, 2011 7:06 pm

skarczew wrote:
heinrich wrote:To not be able to overrun a strength one (1 means: not existing anymore!!!) unit with a tank (especially inf) is totally illogical and irrational.

Enough said.... oO
This is not Real Time pSeudostrategy, hexes have width of hundreds km sometimes. Do you want to run over every tree and bush in that area?

You know, it´s essential to see everything in a kinda healthy relationship especially the scale of the battles. So just to be a little bit more precise than you,

-NO battle in PC plays in a strategical scale of "hundreds of km" per hex, serious
-in fact it´s highly likely that there will be battles where a hex represent only 200m

so plz don´t compare a bush or a tree with a enemy unit because the bush would be indeed a harder obstacle than a strength 1 infantry unit which would be hardly lower the speed of an advancing tank. So the scale is not really important for a special ability like overrun.

corneliul · Post by **corneliul** » Sun May 29, 2011 6:29 am

I loved the overrun feature specially on armour when i killed some 1-2 almost dead inf or tanks units and gain extra prestige with advancing 1 hex(loved tiger with croses for the leader).. pls bring back this feature and up level when capturing cities or killing 2-3 units adiacent with some heavy core tank.

Panzer3L · Post by **Panzer3L** » Sun May 29, 2011 10:38 am

heinrich wrote: -NO battle in PC plays in a strategical scale of "hundreds of km" per hex, serious
-in fact it´s highly likely that there will be battles where a hex represent only 200m

100km per hex would be strategical,200m per hex tactical.

Both of them would be way to extrem for this game.
The hex size of this game is kinda pre-given by the equipmentfile.
An infantry can walk 3 hexes so that means one hex reflects about 15km,give or take a few km's.
Same goes for Arty Firering ranges,tank movement ranges etc

So on a 200m per hex map an infantry could only walk 600meters and a 15cm gun could only fire 600m...

As for the overrun feature.
I find it more likley that badly damaged units surrender themself or try to escape during night than fight to the last.
Guard units may be the exception ofc.

I think a better way to simulate an overrun would be that a unit which has less than say 2strenght points left loses its
ability to provide zone of control.
So the attacking fast units could bypass it and move beyond them,exploiting the hole in the frontline.

Dragoon24 · Post by **Dragoon24** » Mon May 30, 2011 11:51 pm

I think you are making a lot of assumptions. First of all they already stated that the units were in shifting scales so the distance is as well, additionally a turn is never defined is it a day, an hour a week? And Combat strength is not the same as actual strength the "Strength" of a unit is almost certainly a more abstract value involving the morale of the unit, it's ammunition, it's tiredness, it's cohesiveness it's not like it means the unit has an exact number of active personal. And yes units will surrender when pressed beyond the breaking point (even Russian Guards) but if the unit is an entire regiment or division there is no way all the companies will surrender at the same time with no problems there will always be a remnant that must be dealt with and that takes time.