Idiocy

boredatwork · Post by **boredatwork** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:01 pm

Switch them to 0/0 like leg infantry and reduce ammo so they need rebase and rearm more. PG2 had no fuel limits on air.

Heavy bombers should have 2-3 ammo reflecting very long flight radius from far bases.

Medium bombers 3-4 ammo

Light bombers 4-6 (add Hs123 with 9 bomb and 1 vs hard 2 vs soft attack) Guderian's favorite close support but carried joke bombs, operated from cow pastures a few miles behind front.

In the context of PG2 small scenarios that would be fine. For the larger PzC style scenarios on the other hand I fail to see that is an improvement. In an end of Germany scenario for example IL-2s would be able to more effectively attack targets in the Ruhr from russian airfields than B-17s or Lancasters could attack targets in Berlin because you've given them more ammo and unlimited radius.

Likewise Spitfires and Me109s would be able to escort heavy bombers all the way to any target on the map because the bomber would run out of ammo before they did.

Further no one plays PG anymore... So that speaks to PG vs. PG2 approach to design success.

Speak for yourself.

I still play PG more than PG2 because every sequel was 1 step forward, 2 steps back IMO. PG2 did some things right - (recon movement, air spotting, antitank weapons for example) but air units was not one of them. In the scale of the original PG, PG's fuel system though not ideal was better than unlimited fuel in PG2. In PG2's scale People's General's approach with off map air units was much better than PG2 unlimited fuel.

Rudankort wrote:One thing which could be improved in our current implementation is crashing. It just looks a bit too severe by modern game standards, and at the same time it is easy to forget about it or miscalculate the range etc. So instead, I would suggest the following model: when a plane runs out of fuel, it gets:
- zero spotting range (same as in rain/snow)
- zero attack ratings
This way we make sure the plane will not be used for scouting or bomber cover outside its normal range, and it will also become very vulnerable to enemy attacks, so there will be strong reason to return it to base asap. This looks a bit too artificial to my taste, but gameplay-wise should work quite well.

I suggested something similar above.

I would however change it to can't attack or escort, but can still self-defend as long as it has ammo. I would also slash fuel ranges by 30-50% (as fuel is only tracking operational endurance, not total endurance now.)

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:52 pm

It amazes me how much talk there is about air unit functionality, and yet there doesn't seem to be any with regards to air unit behavior during bad weather. I never realized snow and heavy rains turned WW2 prop aircraft into blind stealth units.

Personally I don't think the current implementation is too severe, you guys did a good job letting people know exactly how far an aircraft could go before it ran out of fuel with the reddened hexes, so the player can only blame themselves if they ignore it.

However, for the sake of debate, if I have a 0 fuel plane sitting nearby several fueled aircraft (the zero spotting range is masked by nearby friendlies) what other indicators will the player receive to inform them their aircraft is not fighting at full efficiency? I could click the depleted air unit, fly into enemy territory, become stopped by air ZOC, and then and only then find out "oops, I guess I was out of fuel?" with no way to undo the move now. Sounds almost as awesome as the new recon movement. (That was sarcasm).

You've completely lost any semblance of being intuitive if you start to allow units with zero fuel to continue moving, especially when they are moving upwards of 10 hexes at a time

Go back to KISS, make sure the air model fits into the game play, and call it done. For the record, to me that means keeping the original Panzer General air model, with possibly the addition of consuming double fuel during bad weather.

comradep · Post by **comradep** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:56 am

It amazes me how much talk there is about air unit functionality, and yet there doesn't seem to be any with regards to air unit behavior during bad weather. I never realized snow and heavy rains turned WW2 prop aircraft into blind stealth units.

How are they stealth units? They're still spotted and can still spot units, they just can't attack them. As an abstraction of mostly flying above the snow/rain clouds, I don't really have a problem with it.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:01 am

comradep wrote:How are they stealth units? They're still spotted and can still spot units, they just can't attack them. As an abstraction of mostly flying above the snow/rain clouds, I don't really have a problem with it.

You can use this stealth quite a bit. Park a bomber over a unit that is 2 hexes away from AD guns. Once the weather clears, drop your bombs, no AD fire initiates, and then fly off out of AD gun range. It works even better for paratroopers. You can fly their transports anywhere, completely oblivious to air interdiction or ground AD, and paradrop at your convenience, regardless of the weather. This works especially well in the Norway scenario. Fly your transports up to the northern most city, which the AI usually buys 2 AD guns at. Stay out of range, wait for bad weather, and then fly your transports next to the city, normally an area covered by 2 AD guns. Next turn, even if the weather clears up, you still get to paradrop your units before the AD guns ever get a shot off.

I don't know how else you would describe the ability to fly around with impunity, but I think stealth describes it fairly well. You even get to ignore all ZOC, unless you blunder directly into a previously unsighted enemy air unit.

comradep · Post by **comradep** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:17 pm

I don't know how else you would describe the ability to fly around with impunity, but I think stealth describes it fairly well. You even get to ignore all ZOC, unless you blunder directly into a previously unsighted enemy air unit.

It is not stealth because your opponent can see it happening and react.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:56 pm

comradep wrote:It is not stealth because your opponent can see it happening and react.

I disagree. Especially as the non-phasing player. How can your AD react when they never get an opportunity to fire?

comradep · Post by **comradep** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:14 pm

I disagree. Especially as the non-phasing player. How can your AD react when they never get an opportunity to fire?

Bombers can't bomb either. When you see a bomber hanging over one of your units in your part of a bad weather turn, move an AD unit or fighter unit next to it and bombing the unit will be costly on the next clear weather turn.

It doesn't offer any advantage that can't be countered, aside from some scouting without the risk of being attacked.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:47 pm

Except for the advantage of pressure that is being applied. The pressure that causes an AD unit to move in order to counter a bomber. The pressure that causes your ground units to redeploy against a potential paradrop. I hope your units weren't entrenched, because you pissed it all away trying to chase off something that moves 10 times as fast. Sounds like the perfect feint to me.

If you re-deploy your units to counter, you lose all your positioning and entrenchment, and the air units can just fly off and do other tasks elsewhere. If you do nothing, well we're back to square one aren't we?

This is the sort of thing I look forward to testing in multiplayer BTW, because it seems only when I abuse mechanics and make people cry do they sometimes understand the point I'm trying to get across about how it's broken.

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:06 pm

Kerensky wrote:This is the sort of thing I look forward to testing in multiplayer BTW, because it seems only when I abuse mechanics and make people cry do they sometimes understand the point I'm trying to get across about how it's broken.

So, what is your suggestion for air units in bad weather?

comradep · Post by **comradep** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:55 pm

There are also downsides, you could box the enemy air unit in between planes of your own for example. I'm not convinced it's a genuine problem.

Sure, there will probably always be mechanics that can be exploited, but at least there are clear counters to this strategy.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:21 am

Rudankort wrote:So, what is your suggestion for air units in bad weather?

Personally, considering how powerful air units can sometimes be (as pointed out in other discussions) I would paralyze air units during snow or rain. Can't move, can't see, can't shoot, but also can't be moved, can't be seen, can't be shot at. The only exception to this paralysis would be aircraft are only allowed moves that bring them adjacent to a friendly airfield.

That's fairly extreme though, and it takes into consideration the current killing power that aircraft(not level bombers) currently have. If air power is toned down, as implied in other threads, a less severe solution is warranted.

There are also downsides, you could box the enemy air unit in between planes of your own for example

There is no air ZOC, you would need a full 6 aircraft to completely box in a single air unit, 8 to box in aircraft traveling adjacent to each other(as I frequently like to do with paratroopers). If you're using that much of your air force to trap singular units, assuming the scenario is balanced, the other player is going to have huge temporary advantages in other crisis points because you've invested air power in a single location on a 6 to 1 ratio.

comradep · Post by **comradep** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:34 am

There is no air ZOC

Hmm, I thought there was. In that case, boxing in units is tricky.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:56 pm

comradep wrote:Hmm, I thought there was. In that case, boxing in units is tricky.

Precisely.

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:14 am

I've been thinking about air units in bad weather and concluded that existing situation is not that bad. The whole point of having weather in the game is to show some negative effects it has on your offensive, and that we have. In rain or snow your air force becomes almost completely useless because it cannot attack, and compared to PG it cannot scout and cannot box enemy air units. Even if there some exploits of bad weather, you would likely still prefer clear weather on the same turn.

I don't think it is a big problem that you can position a bomber above a unit, and then attack on the next (clear) turn. The enemy has enough time to react. If it is a fortified position, you can regroup to provide some air defense, if it is not fortified position you can move the unit, and in those rare cases when you don't want to move the unit, but you don't want to provide air cover either (e. g. infantry entrenched in a non-VH city with no air support planned), then you just leave it as it is. Bad weather has already delayed the bombing of your unit by one turn. What else could you possibly want?

I agree that paratroopers might get an advantage in bad weather which they wouldn't normally have. But, as I mentioned in some other thread, I had an idea to add some lasting suppression to paratroopers when they drop (to simulate the fact that the unit can become disorganized and/or vulnerable to enemy attacks while dropping). If we do this, this will be enough reason to avoid dropping in front of concentrated enemy force, no matter what weather you currently have.