First player run tournament rules and pairings!!!!

paulolszanski2 · Post by **paulolszanski2** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:05 am

Acererak Acererak will play the winner of arminus berndn
amaz_ed

Arminius
berndN

hidde
jhdeerslayer

logans
matto

melinbone
onesparten

paulolszanski2
PirateJock

pomakl
sailing guy

shawn63
Sleet

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:18 am

me and matto have a 10 hour time difference so have a little patience with us we will most likely be the last ones finished.. trying to play 2 turns a day if we can

berndN · Post by **berndN** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:30 am

I believe that Arminius and I have a time difference too. I'm in europe and my guess is that he is in australia/asian time zone so be prepared for some longer games.

Acererak · Post by **Acererak** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:25 am

Thanks to Amaz_Ed for some very nice games

And i am in Europe as well, just for the record

Good luck everyone!

paulolszanski2 · Post by **paulolszanski2** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:10 pm

when we do a league we will have to have divisions.that will make it easier on everybody else.im in the usa

shawnt63 · Post by **shawnt63** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:36 pm

I guess the division idea will work until it gets to the point of finalist then it will slow down in any case if they are from around the globe. Maybe it's just one of those things that will mean a slower result in certain cases? In any case for my part I don't mind if it takes a bit longer - but if there is a solution I am happy to go along.

From Canada!

Shawn

Melnibone · Post by **Melnibone** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:24 pm

onespartan is away until Friday - so our games will not be starting until then.

Matto · Post by **Matto** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:44 pm

So we finished ... in both battles allied won destroying all enemy units before the end of battle:

Here are losses:

Germany (Logans) x Allied (Matto) ... 6,3,5,4,2 x 1,5,0,0,0
Germany (Matto) x Allied (Logans) ... 6,3,5,4,2 x 3,6,0,0,1

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:44 pm

Matto killed my last unit and only had 3 flags i killed his last unit and had 4 flags, i took more losses than he did

paulolszanski2 · Post by **paulolszanski2** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:00 pm

total amount of flags is the first tie breaker after won loss

Matto · Post by **Matto** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:11 am

So please again. We both finished battle destroying ALL enemy units BEFORE the end of battle (in battle where I was allied we finished I think 8 turns before the end, in battle where Logans 5 or 6 turns before the end). Because I destroyed all enemy units between 2nd and 3rd flag, sure I was not able take last flag, because battle ends after destroying last unit German unit ... but be sure, in 8 turns it could be possible walk slowly and take the last flag

Logans had all flags because we finished fight between 3rd and last fag, but in fact we both won taking ALL flags, because enemy was completely destroyed before the end of battle ...

hidde · Post by **hidde** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:03 am

The only solution I can see is that you have to avoid killing the last enemy unit untill you have all five VP.
It could easily come down to who lost less units as the allies.
I got a feeling that is what will happen in my game with jhdeerslayer...
On a map like this maybe it would be better to determine the winner by how fast you take the fifth VP and not by casualties.

PirateJock_Wargamer · Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:47 am

paulolszanski2 wrote:4. Scoring Rules :
- Winner is decided by scenario wins
- If tied, total number of flags controlled after both games
- If tied again, best ratio of Total Kills/Losses of both games

A problem with Tournaments is that you have to go 'gamey' to win. I suppose that could be seen as a positive ... adapting to change

Now just need to think of every single advantage / loophole to beat Paul

Acererak · Post by **Acererak** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:48 am

As participant of the tournament i will give my humble opinion, but I think the organizer should have the final word about this.

It´s clear by the rules that the first tie breaker is total number of flags held after both games. In the event of having a major beating to your opponent, it´s quite easy to detach some units and hold those flags before finishing off the little resistance it still might have. In this case Matto even says he had quite a few turns left, so he could have easily gone after all 5 flags of the scenario before hunting down the last units of Logan. That would have given him the round even before accounting for units lost, and i think the rules in this case are fair and would have allowed for this outcome.

This leads to more interesting tactics in my opinion as well. Since flags count first, even if you see the scenario is quite umbalanced (like Road to Caen by the way, which is very hard to win as Axis) you can plan your defensive strategy as to hold the most number of flags possible even if finnally losing the scenario, and then go for all of them aggresively when playing the favored side.

So in this case, i think victory is for Logan (sorry abouth that Matto)

My two cents

hidde · Post by **hidde** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:52 pm

Once again the allies won both games.

jhdeerslayer - victory as allies, 5 VP, 30 units lost total.

hidde - victory as allies, 5 VP, 25 units lost total.

Matto · Post by **Matto** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:33 am

I cannot understand this unlogical result ... I do not agree, but will respect it.

So just one tip for other players ... like Axis start immediately counter-attack and destroy all your forces as soon as possible ... Allied palyer will be able take max first two flags ... if your opponent will not do the same (so will be fighting logically retreating to the last position like I did), you must win !

Matto · Post by **Matto** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:35 am

Acererak wrote:As participant of the tournament i will give my humble opinion, but I think the organizer should have the final word about this.

It´s clear by the rules that the first tie breaker is total number of flags held after both games. In the event of having a major beating to your opponent, it´s quite easy to detach some units and hold those flags before finishing off the little resistance it still might have. In this case Matto even says he had quite a few turns left, so he could have easily gone after all 5 flags of the scenario before hunting down the last units of Logan. That would have given him the round even before accounting for units lost, and i think the rules in this case are fair and would have allowed for this outcome.

This leads to more interesting tactics in my opinion as well. Since flags count first, even if you see the scenario is quite umbalanced (like Road to Caen by the way, which is very hard to win as Axis) you can plan your defensive strategy as to hold the most number of flags possible even if finnally losing the scenario, and then go for all of them aggresively when playing the favored side.

So in this case, i think victory is for Logan (sorry abouth that Matto)

My two cents

Just quick response

You can never know, this is your opponent last unit. So you will see it, you will destroy it ... and as I wrote in last post. If defender will use all his units in the middle of the map, you will destroy all his units and you will never take last flag.

So my logic: if scenario ends destroying all enemy units before last turn of battle = winner is occupying ALL map including all flags and result depends on loses.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:55 am

How about looking at the number of turns played. E.g. If I win in 10 turns and lose in 15, I had 5 turns of time to do stuff my opponent didnt. You could equate 1 turn difference in completion time to the time to capture one flag. E.g. I won with 3/8 flags and lost with opponent controlling 5/8 flags. I have 5 turns spare on him so my score adjust from 3 to 8 and he has only 5 so I win.

Its a bit more complex but gives a fairer result.

Alternativaley - does this mission have a time limit? If it does the German Allied score could be turns remaining when Germans are destroyed + Flags controlled. If not, adding one would probably help. This is a lot simpler and coudl be reported to both sides through the in Game UI for that mission.

Acererak · Post by **Acererak** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:32 am

Matto wrote: Just quick response
You can never know, this is your opponent last unit. So you will see it, you will destroy it ... and as I wrote in last post. If defender will use all his units in the middle of the map, you will destroy all his units and you will never take last flag.

So my logic: if scenario ends destroying all enemy units before last turn of battle = winner is occupying ALL map including all flags and result depends on loses.

I see your point Matto, and if you dont know exact composition of forces (many players do as have played this scenarios a few times, but could be not) i see this gamey tactic being thought of....but still, i think i can hold back my units (hold fire action, remember) if i see the opponent does not have any major force left, and really, give me a Bren Carrier and i will get those flags for you. Wanna give it a try?

Set up a game in that scenario with you playing axis and using that tactic and we can check result if you like.

I think there will always be gamey tactics that can be used (I myself even tried first time, and had to repeat the scenario, sorry again amaz_ed

) but the rules are simple and still allow in most scenarios for a fair outcome and good thinking tactics to be the winners.

PirateJock_Wargamer · Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:32 am

Matto wrote:I cannot understand this unlogical result ... I do not agree, but will respect it.

Kudos to Matto