charge path redux

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philqw78
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Post by philqw78 »

beausant wrote:What direction must the charger move when the target evades...does the charger follow the evading target or may the charger move straight ahead and contact a unit that was not the charge target? May the unit being contacted be contacted in the flank, even if a flank charge was not legal?
The charger must either continue on the same charge path or follow the evader.
If the charge then contacts enemy in the flank, though not a legal flank charge, the impact is fought as other non legal charges hitting the flank, as if it hit the front of the BG
Last edited by philqw78 on Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ghaznavid »

nikgaukroger wrote:I'd just change the FAQ to say you state the direction of a charge when the charge is declared - no need to make it dependant on anything.
As much as it pains me. :wink: I agree with Nik on this. It is the simple and clean solution.
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Post by ottomanmjm »

madcam2us wrote:All of this is great, and we are all in agreement that RAW doesn't require you to state direction of charge....

The FAQ however DOES give directions that the "path" must be declared when possible interceptions are about...

Madcam.
I am not in agreement :)
In the "Declaration of Charges" section the second paragraph states "Any enemy battle groups in the PATH (my emphasis) of a charge count as being charged if it can be legally contacted".

So it seems reasonable that the path of the charge, or the charge direction needs to be known to know what units are targets.
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Post by marioslaz »

Only my opinion, but I think that charge path is more historical and charge target more easy to play. Charge target(s) is an abstraction which has been used in a lot of rules, but if you think a while is not strictly correct, because a BG didn't send a message to enemy like "Pssst, watch out! We're charging you!". It's up to skirmishers BGs realize they are in the path of enemy charge. I can remember a ruleset where skirmishers had a reaction test to see how many time they needed before they understood they were under charge; a good intention, but it didn't work well because a great proportion of available skirmishers couldn't evade in time! So charge path is quite more realistic, but a little harder to manage, in particular if your opponent is more a billiard player than a wargamer :wink:
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Post by gozerius »

If the primary target evades, but there are still other enemy BGs that lie within the charge path, the chargers must follow the original charge path. If all targets have evaded out of the original charge path, the charging BG may choose to follow the original charge path to the limit of his VMD, or alternatively, wheel in the direction of one of the evading BGs. If this causes a new BG to fall within the new charge path, they may be contacted if a legal charge contact is possible. Sometimes it is possible that a charge move causes a BG to end in side edge to side edge contact with an enemy base that is not eligible to be charged. This does not count as a legal charge contact, so no Impact combat is fought, but the charging BG would count as an overlap in the melee phase. You are not allowed to move short when charging to accomplish this.
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Post by expendablecinc »

nikgaukroger wrote:I'd just change the FAQ to say you state the direction of a charge when the charge is declared - no need to make it dependant on anything.
I completely agree. I'll go out on a limb to suggest that this was in intent of the faq and that the interceptions are an example but sadly not explicit - hence this thread.

If you dont declare your path before evade declaration there will be instances of illege levades.

anthony
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Post by expendablecinc »

[quote="david53]I thought it was declare all charges first then opponent declares if evading or not and then directions of charges are made?[/quote]

If you do this then ytou will get the situation where every enemy Lh and LF has to test not to evade if within 5 inches and a 180 degree arc of a BG of charging Cav. They could potentially be contacted but the charger.
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Post by spikemesq »

philqw78 wrote:
rules wrote:A battle group can declare charges on as many enemy battle groups as can "legally" be contacted within this move distance
In your example Spike the charge could be declared on either but not both as you cannot contact both within your move distance. And would have to wheel twice to do so as well.
What the rules do not state (but may or may not imply) is that potential charge targets are limited to a single charge path. In my example both enemy BGs "can be 'legally contacted' within this move distance" but cannot be contacted in a single move. I understand your point where you infer that the rule narrows charge targets to the probable charge (vs. the possible charge).

As written, the rules prompt both BGs to react because they do not know which of them will be contacted by the charge. This makes sense as the ground view of the enemy BGs is that the lancers are charging. They hear the trumpets, etc. and must decide what to do. It seems unrealistic for one group to know the ultimate target of the charge because, at declaration, they would not ignore their chance to flee without advance intel from the enemy. Thus, a BG within range and without obstruction should not be able to blow off a charging enemy as "not my problem."

Assume we play it your way, with the charger specifying which of the two potential targets it is charging and the other BG ignoring the charge. Also for clarity, assume the two enemy BGs are single rank Cv (who can intercept and evade).

Under your view, if the charge is to the right and the left BG therefore is not a target and cannot evade. The right BG evades with a +2 MU VMD. If the chargers roll a VMD that will not allow contact with the evaders, must the chargers proceed with no contact, even though the left BG could now be contacted by the chargers with a single wheel? Recall that the charge move is executed, including any wheels, after all reactions (evades, intercepts, etc.).

According to page 53, the chargers move their full distance and may include a wheel at any point, so long as it will not contact fewer BGs than a move straight ahead. Our chargers have three options: (1) move toward the evaders for naught; (2) move straight ahead for naught; or (3) wheel toward the left and contact that BG. Under the narrow target rule, the chargers ignore the only possible contact available.

This becomes even harder if the left BG has no evade option. Why wouldn't the chargers seek to contact? Why should they have a VMD if there remains a possible target within reach that did not evade?

OTOH, if all possible targets are charge targets, then the scenario plays out like so:

Charge declared and chargers designated.

Both enemy BGs react. To the extent a charge direction is needed for reference, it is identified by target but need not be a unitary direction (since the charge move is not carried out yet). Charge implemented based on results of those reactions (VMD, if all evaded, move straight ahead unless a wheel results in more targets in contact).

Spike

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Post by lawrenceg »

IMO the path ought to be defined as part of the declaration.

I hope the authors will issue an erratum to this effect.

Until then, you can force a player to define a charge path at any time by challenging him to demonstrate that his charge is legal.
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Post by spikemesq »

lawrenceg wrote:IMO the path ought to be defined as part of the declaration.

I hope the authors will issue an erratum to this effect.

Until then, you can force a player to define a charge path at any time by challenging him to demonstrate that his charge is legal.
The legality requirement does not lock in a charge path. The targets must be able to be legally contacted by the chargers. If within range with a clear path, there is no challenge to the legality of the charge.

Spike
lawrenceg
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Post by lawrenceg »

spikemesq wrote:
lawrenceg wrote:IMO the path ought to be defined as part of the declaration.

I hope the authors will issue an erratum to this effect.

Until then, you can force a player to define a charge path at any time by challenging him to demonstrate that his charge is legal.
The legality requirement does not lock in a charge path. The targets must be able to be legally contacted by the chargers. If within range with a clear path, there is no challenge to the legality of the charge.

Spike
The existence of a legal charge path does not imply that the charge you attempt is a legal charge. The onus is on you to demonstrate that your actual charge path is legal.
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Post by philqw78 »

Spike wrote:OTOH, if all possible targets are charge targets, then the scenario plays out like so:

Charge declared and chargers designated.

Both enemy BGs react. To the extent a charge direction is needed for reference, it is identified by target but need not be a unitary direction (since the charge move is not carried out yet). Charge implemented based on results of those reactions (VMD, if all evaded, move straight ahead unless a wheel results in more targets in contact).
Which direction do the evaders evade in?? They have a choice, to their rear or away from the direction of charge. If the charge goes towards the enemy in the opposite direction does the evader get to follow the charger :?
Also in your example a BG can never be intercepted by enemy within charge reach, unless it is LH who have not passed a CMT.

Code: Select all

         


                                                   AA      BB
                                           CC
                                        DD
      
                                                                     EE

                                                       LH


Since photobucket is down
LH is coincidentally LH who have passed a CMT to charge, they really want to charge CC who is fragmented, but hey they've passed the test so. DD is HF facing right, AA and BB are knights facing down, EE is LH facing left. Since LH has passed a CMT all are targets so none may intercept LH. EE may evade. If LH was instead cavalry all would still be targets and EE must evade or test to stand. Brilliant.

I, personally, would be happy to play this way. Lancer Cavalry heaven, Dave Ruddock would love it as well because his LH would be immune to intercept, except from behind flank. Say I'm cheesy, but you are creating it.
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Post by spikemesq »

phil: Also in your example a BG can never be intercepted by enemy within charge reach, unless it is LH who have not passed a CMT.
This is why the definition of charge target is crucial.

However, LH who fail their CMT cannot be intercepted, as they are not charging because they failed the CMT.

Another component of the broader "potential target" rule is that it could increase the number of intercepts. Using the LH example above, other BGs whose ZOI reach the "huge charge path pie slice" would be eligible to intercept.

The charge path declaration rule gets more tangled in knots when you consider the rule on actually making the charge move.

Until the charger's landscape is established -- i.e., after all evades and intercepts, the charger may not be able to choose a direction. Page 53 limits a charge move to (a) directly ahead to legally contact a target; or (b) an advance with a single wheel if required to avoid friends or if this would result in equal or greater bases in contact than straight ahead.

The wheel decision can only be made after evades and intercepts occur, because the charger cannot know whether the wheel will be valid.

Put another way, the rules suggest that, at declaration, a charge is always straight ahead, unless evades and intercepts do nothing to alter the potential charge.

To be clear, I recognize that the broader definition of charge targets is, to say the least, funky. OTOH, declaring a specific charge path has its own problems. It does not fit well into the charge sequence. The path declared may not be legal once the landscape changes between declaration and charge moves. It assumes that enemy BGs enjoy much more knowledge than they should (i.e., not just that the enemy has spurred the charge, but the precise path and target of that charge). It allows for fiddly micro-management because it suggests that the charger can angle that direction to edge out potential intercepts by declaring a path that skirts enemy ZOIs. It also suggests greater freedom of movement than the actual charge moves permit.

Most importantly, I don't really "have a dog in this fight." The rules should make sense, though. The current treatment of charge targets (under either interpretation) does not.

Consider the modified example of Lancers facing 2 BGs of single rank Cv that are 3 MU off from either corner. Both can (but need not) evade if they are charge targets. Both may be contacted by a single move straight ahead with one base from each fighting in the impact phase. A single wheel could result in 2 bases of Lancers fighting one Cv BG. (if only I could insert diagrams :( )

Lancers declare a charge.

Under the declare=path rule, that charge could be straight ahead making both Cv BGs targets.

The enemy evades on the left and receives on the right.

Must the Lancers move straight and fight only a single base in impact? Can they not wheel to add more bases into the impact fight, now that the other Cv have flown the coop? The rules say that the Lancers can wheel if this would result in equal/more bases fighting than a straight ahead move. At declaration the wheel would yield equal impact bases. At the move stage the wheel yields more. Why should the Lancers have to commit to a path before they know what they can do?

Is that realistic?

"Men we are going to charge those heathens for blood and glory!"

"Look at those nancy-boys on the left run for their momma."

"Sir, the enemy on the right are goers! Let's show them what we are made of."

"Sorry, lads. We promised that we would not turn. My hands are tied. Maybe next time."

Really?

Spike

Keeping his options open.
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Post by petedalby »

I've read this thread a couple of times now and I'm struggling to understand what the problem is?

Why wouldn't you declare the target and path of your charge? What do you gain or lose? Is there some drop of advantage being wrung from this that I've missed?

Without a charge path you can't determine who can intercept. And it also determines the direction of evades.

And hopefully Phil is using an extreme example to suggest that someone's else's point was ill-considered?

Very confused...
Pete
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Post by nikgaukroger »

petedalby wrote:I've read this thread a couple of times now and I'm struggling to understand what the problem is?

I think its an American thing :lol:

Some serious overthinking of the rules going on when they should just be getting on with it IMO - they might have stood a better chance at the IWF then :wink: :wink:
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Post by hammy »

petedalby wrote:Without a charge path you can't determine who can intercept. And it also determines the direction of evades.
Exactly
petedalby wrote:And hopefully Phil is using an extreme example to suggest that someone's else's point was ill-considered?
Yes he was, the idea reminded me of the game 4000AD where you space fleets are simultaneously at all points a given distance from where they started.

I would be totally happy for the FAQ to define that charge direction must be defined at the point of declaration. It is effectively the way I always play the game and the way my opponents play as well.
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Post by spikemesq »

petedalby wrote:I've read this thread a couple of times now and I'm struggling to understand what the problem is?

Why wouldn't you declare the target and path of your charge? What do you gain or lose? Is there some drop of advantage being wrung from this that I've missed?

Without a charge path you can't determine who can intercept. And it also determines the direction of evades.

And hopefully Phil is using an extreme example to suggest that someone's else's point was ill-considered?

Very confused...
Declaring a target does not resolve this because any element in the path of a charge counts as being charged "even if it was not one of the originally declared targets of the charge." See pg. 52.

Again, the available charge path may change between declaration and charge move. So even if the charger must declare a target and/or a path, the rules still have to give some leeway for the actual charge to differ from the declared path and target. The original target may be gone. A new enemy may intercept and become the recipient of the charge. Should the charger be forced to carry out a charge along a path that no longer makes sense? Surely, the charger can move to contact the intercepting BG. Can it not wheel or deviate from the declared path to do so effectively? An intercepting unit cannot be the target of the declared charge (See pg. 62). If that interception places it in front of the charging unit, can't that unit wheel to contact the interceptor notwithstanding its originally declared charge path?

Even assuming that charge declaration must include a direction and path, why force the charger to follow that path after the landscape has changed to present more immediate enemy in its path?

Spike
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Post by hammy »

spikemesq wrote:Declaring a target does not resolve this because any element in the path of a charge counts as being charged "even if it was not one of the originally declared targets of the charge." See pg. 52.
I can just about see your argument but it is perverse to say the least and most definitly not what is intended.
Again, the available charge path may change between declaration and charge move.
It might in the games you play but not the way the rest of use do. The only alteration to the path of a charge that is allowed is that it can wheel to follow evaders if there is nothing left in the path of the charge.
So even if the charger must declare a target and/or a path, the rules still have to give some leeway for the actual charge to differ from the declared path and target.
Not much.
The original target may be gone. A new enemy may intercept and become the recipient of the charge.
If the original target evades it may reveal other targets on the original path of the charge. There is no provision for a charge to redirect itself halfway to go for a more exciting target that was not in the original path.
Should the charger be forced to carry out a charge along a path that no longer makes sense? Surely, the charger can move to contact the intercepting BG. Can it not wheel or deviate from the declared path to do so effectively? An intercepting unit cannot be the target of the declared charge (See pg. 62). If that interception places it in front of the charging unit, can't that unit wheel to contact the interceptor notwithstanding its originally declared charge path?
No.
Even assuming that charge declaration must include a direction and path, why force the charger to follow that path after the landscape has changed to present more immediate enemy in its path?

Spike
Because that is what the rules say.
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Post by spikemesq »

Hammy: If the original target evades it may reveal other targets on the original path of the charge. There is no provision for a charge to redirect itself halfway to go for a more exciting target that was not in the original path.
On this point, I am assuming the narrower definition of charge targets that requires a path as part of the declaration.

The question is not redirecting to a non-target. Instead, must the charger commit to the declared path when it could wheel to engage more bases from an original target? Consider the previous example where one target evades and the other stands. If the charger is strictly committed to declared path, must he engage fewer bases of the remaining BG because wheeling to that target is inconsistent with the initially declared path of straight ahead?

Again, if targets do not include all enemy that could be legally contacted, but are limited only to those that could be contacted by a declared move/path, why can't that path adjust to include a wheel to engage an otherwise valid target?

Moreover, change this part of the scenario. Same positioning of Lancers against two Cv BGs. The Lancers can hit one base from both if it charges straight ahead. This time, however, the Lancers declare a charge that will wheel to hit two bases from the Cv on the left. The Cv on the left evade. The Cv on the right are not a target of the charge because they are not in the declared path. They could intercept but choose not to or are precluded from doing so (FRAG or DISR and fail CMT). Because all targets (under the narrow definition) have evaded, the Lancers roll a VMD of 4 -- normal move.

Where do they go?

If they follow the declared path, the move is illegal because it is not directly ahead and will not result in more bases in combat during the impact phase than a full advance. If they move directly ahead under the rule on pg. 53, they will not follow the declared path.

Spike
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Post by philqw78 »

spikemesq wrote:Moreover, change this part of the scenario. Same positioning of Lancers against two Cv BGs. The Lancers can hit one base from both if it charges straight ahead. This time, however, the Lancers declare a charge that will wheel to hit two bases from the Cv on the left. The Cv on the left evade. The Cv on the right are not a target of the charge because they are not in the declared path. They could intercept but choose not to or are precluded from doing so (FRAG or DISR and fail CMT). Because all targets (under the narrow definition) have evaded, the Lancers roll a VMD of 4 -- normal move.

Where do they go?

If they follow the declared path, the move is illegal because it is not directly ahead and will not result in more bases in combat during the impact phase than a full advance. If they move directly ahead under the rule on pg. 53, they will not follow the declared path.

Spike
This is true
phil
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