Conforming big units in melee

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:44 pm

I second that. I think the problem is more commonly one of an inexperienced player blundering into a position where he can be hit by an anged charge, and not one of a clever person engineering one. In which case - sadder but wiser, I hope.

graym · Post by **graym** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:46 am

Anyway that all sounds good. So let's go to page 75, intro of Moving into contact .

" Battle groups can only move into contact with enemy battle groups in the manoevre phase , but only to join
an existing melee in an overlap position. "

So swinging a big group around to collect a separate unit /s seems to contradict this. Thoughts?

On a related issue how would skirmisher evades work/ not work ?

graym · Post by **graym** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:17 am

Well that's a deafening silence.
.
You either conform into full contact sans support fire or you dont. Not overlaps.
However pg 70 states that files step forward to contact already contacted enemy while conforming.
But when is " already " judged. Pre or post conforming.?

God knows what skirmishers do. Is this a formal charge.? How can conforming be related to variable move distance?

At a rough guess I think no one actually knows.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:08 am

As far as I can tell what is being considered is a charge by a wide BG on a lone BG that just happens to be exactly level with another BG from the same side some distance to the flank. Otherwise the stepping forwards rule would most likely come into play anyway or at least it would unless the charge was at a very odd angle.

A bit like this where B is the target of the charge, A is the other BG and * are the chargers.

Code: Select all

AA  BB *
      *
     *
    *

If the chargers conform to B and A is exactly level with them then it would seem that no impact would occur.
If A is even slightly in front of B then the conform would not happen as A would prevent * lining up with B
If A is even slightly behind B then it would not be contacted.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:22 am

So what you are saying is: if there is a gap between A and B there would be no conforming as new BG may not be contacted; if A and B were next to each other the conform would take place as A is in a position to overlap.

graym · Post by **graym** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:59 am

That is the crux of it but that is different to the first opinions. If the Not Charged unit is forward or aligned with the Charged Unit doesnt matter.
If you swing in on the conform without an overlap you must end up somewhere. Or conforming is voided if you contact anybody [ bar overlap ].

Clearly a huge rule problem area but even if you run that definition what happens to aligned / overlapped skirmishers ?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:01 am

Skirmishers in overlap positions can be contacted and they do not get to evade. Apparently they should not be in a position to support battle troops.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:06 pm

graym wrote:Clearly a huge rule problem area .....

No it's not because it hardly ever happens. It's certainly never happened in a game I've played in.

graym · Post by **graym** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:24 pm

Hardly ever maybe depending on what you play with. If you have big regular units who can wheel to suit on their final approach it happens regularly if that is your aim.

And even if it is hardly ever that hardly is a reassuring rules position which based on this discussion has no final conclusion.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:10 pm

I thought we had come to the final conclusion. If the other BG, the one not contacted at impact, is in overlap position it can be conformed or expanded onto, if there is a gap it cannot.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:51 pm

I think that overlap possitions may be the key although I am not sure that there is anything absolute in the rules about this.

I don't see it as a problem, it needs wide BGs and very angled charges to make it even have a chance to happen.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:55 pm

graym wrote:Hardly ever maybe depending on what you play with. If you have big regular units who can wheel to suit on their final approach it happens regularly if that is your aim..

So tell us, how many times has this happened in a game you have played ?

And what do you mean by big units. 4 is normally the maximum frontage of any unit. The biggest frontage I have ever seen is a BG of 6 knights expanding (but not moving in - that would be too cumbersome) to a frontage of 5.

It seems you have come up with an unlikely situation that hardly ever occurs in practice, and are making a big deal out of it.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:00 pm

Polkovnik wrote:
graym wrote:Hardly ever maybe depending on what you play with. If you have big regular units who can wheel to suit on their final approach it happens regularly if that is your aim..
So tell us, how many times has this happened in a game you have played ?

And what do you mean by big units. 4 is normally the maximum frontage of any unit. The biggest frontage I have ever seen is a BG of 6 knights expanding (but not moving in - that would be too cumbersome) to a frontage of 5.

It seems you have come up with an unlikely situation that hardly ever occurs in practice, and are making a big deal out of it.

And if there is to be a 'free' contact you need the enemy to have two BGs with their front edges exactly level with each other.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:29 pm

The original question was motivated by the ability to frontally contact extra bases of the same BG by conforming, thus avoiding the impact combat and support shooting from a rear rank.

It was subsequently postulated that the rule (paraphrase) "You can only move into contact in the manoeuvre phase as an overlap" would prohibit you from conforming in that case.

IMO that prohibition is only intended to apply to actual moves, not to conforms or feeding more bases in melee. Certainly this is obvious in the latter case.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Hitting the corner of a BG such that you don't step forward to another base is not that easy but if you did it would indeed cut down the impact dice. It wouldn't stop a conform IMO but it does require co-operation from the intended target.

There are lots of other ways to engineer similar if not better tricks. Charging with impact foot and sword and buckler men at the same BG so that you end up with more bases than the enemy in contact at impact means you get into contact with the sword and bucklers but they don't even have to roll the impact combat unless you for some reason want to do so.

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:32 pm

Phil wrote 'You have missed my criminal part in the 2 most popular threads at the moment. I am to be taken to the Hague and tried for war (game) crimes soon.' How soon?

graym · Post by **graym** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:48 am

Well the question has got a bit lost. I'm not just talking about conforming to the same battle group .
This is including conforming to the impacted unit and hitting a unit which is separate and further forward.

The absence of support fire is a different but related issue.

How often does this happen ? In my last 3 out of 3 games trialling playing with 12 base Dom legions.
My attitude to drilled troops is the same as in DBM.
If you can do stuff, do it. And do it big time .Not just march forward with rear support and hope it all works out with skirmishers doing their stuff elsewhere.

This is still relevant if you are LH hunting with 4 or 6 wide Cav units clipping one unit and swinging out to collect all and sundry. 6 reg Knights obviously too.

Look I'm not fussed either way but am looking for guidance.

If conforming hitting new opponents prohibits the conform, fine. But I cant see that it's in the rules as is.
Apart from the overlap proviso which implies perfect alignment, but as stated there have been some varying opinions in this thread.

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:09 am

graym wrote: Look I'm not fussed either way but am looking for guidance.

If conforming hitting new opponents prohibits the conform, fine. But I cant see that it's in the rules as is.
Apart from the overlap proviso which implies perfect alignment, but as stated there have been some varying opinions in this thread.

The answer depends on whether conforming is classed as moving. If so you cant do it as the unengaged BG cannot be contacted other than as an overlap (you cant move into contact frontally).

If it is not classed as moving then you can conform into them. If this is the case it is probably an overlooked area whereby the newly contacted skirmishers shoudl be able to evade.

For those suggesting it doesnt happen much it may happen more now that people are aware of it. Battle lines are normal so there are often troops that are exactly lined up (its what a battle line is). Also often the hardest units are on the flank of the battle line. This is a way of avoiding as much impact damage from the central units then carving up in mellee.

Sounds like a good use of drilled non-lancer knights.

Anthony

PS personally I think that conforming is a form of movement, hence you can swing in to contact other bases of the contacted BG but you cannot swing in to contact new unengaged units in the conform (except as an overlap) as per page 70.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:41 pm

graym wrote:How often does this happen ? In my last 3 out of 3 games trialling playing with 12 base Dom legions.
....This is still relevant if you are LH hunting with 4 or 6 wide Cav units clipping one unit and swinging out to collect all and sundry. 6 reg Knights obviously too.

I fail to see why any sensible player would want to minimise impact dice in these situations. Roman legionaries are the best foot troops at impact, cav are better than LH at impact, knights are better than most things at impact. So these troops would normally be aiming to get maximum contact at impact, not minimum.

But I agree there are cases where minimising impact contact is advantageous, and the tactic you suggest is one way of doing this (another way is contracting by one file before contact then expanding after, which we have discussed on another thread). The problem with doing what you suggest is it leaves the flank of the angled unit open, so you can't do it in the middle of two battle lines. You could do it on the flank, but if the enemy flank is open you would normally be better trying to flank the enemy rather than do this tactic anyway.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:46 pm

graym wrote:This is including conforming to the impacted unit and hitting a unit which is separate and further forward.
How often does this happen ? In my last 3 out of 3 games trialling playing with 12 base Dom legions.

Are you saying that in your last three games a BG charged at such an angle that bases couldn't step forward into contact, then when trying to conform contacted another unit ?

If so this is something that people on here who have played hundreds of games have never seen happen, yet you've seen it in three games ?

Presumably your 12 base BGs are 8 bases of HF with 4 bases of LF, operating in a four wide formation ? How did all these angled contacts happen ?