Fighting Light Horse Armies

[lawrenceg]

Ethan,


all I can think to do is dismount, laager up, and hope for the best. I always run an IC and always try to provide for rear support. I am not able to avoid taking the CTs, so I try and maximize my chances of passing them.

to date I have always been crushed; sometimes quickly, and sometimes slowly and painfully.

If you have been crushed every time when you use this tactic, it probably means that this is not a good tactic.

Time to try something else, like an all-out mounted attack aimed at the enemy camp. You might still get crushed, but that is no worse than now and it might be a more interesting game.

[philqw78]

Ethan,

. . .

I don't have any special insights on defeating a shooty army. .....dismount, laager up, and hope for the best.

Exactly what I said. Just don't sit in the corner after the lager

[DavidT]

I recently played a game with my Late Republican Romans against a Parthian army (in a themed tournament). I didn't fancy a repeat of Carrhae so I strung my legionaries (7 BGs) out in a single rank. Being armoured, they didn't suffer much from shooting and it is difficult for the LH to get good shooting two bounds in a row against a particular BG combined with poor dice from the legionaries as well. Two BGs of legionaries did go disrupted but I was able to rally these before any serious harm occurred. Being drilled, the legionaries can reform quickly when the Cats come threatening (I had a BG of elephants in reserve with a general to manoeuvre to where the Cats were and support my foot).

An IC is great, but expensive, however, I was using 4TCs, including a Numidian ally. This gave me 3 BGs of Javelin armed LH which should have been a counter to the Parthian bow armed LH (it didn't actually work out this way as my opponent proceeded to charge my LH with his and break all three of my BGs!). This did take some time however and the legions were merrily advancing across the table.

As suggested by other posts, terrain is a big hinderance to the infantry army, so I was happy when the table ended up being almost entirely open.

I actually found that my line was longer than my opponents and I got my Cv and my own Bow LH behind the Parthian line which caused no end of problems for my opponent.

However, in the time available it will be difficult to win, but a winning draw for the foot is achievable.

Regards
David

[babyshark]

To address this issue the way Ethan intended, I put forth the following:

At Historicon I was, on multiple occasions, facing many BGs of shooty light horse with two BGs of shooty cav. I put the cav in line and charged whenever the Lh were in range. Upon reflection, I am not sure that was the best idea.

My reasoning was that, by charging right away, I saved myself a bound of received shooting and moved the Lh back toward the board edge that much more quickly, in exchange for a decreased likelihood of catching them during the evade. It worked tolerably well in one game, and poorly in the other (against more Lh).

Any comments?

Marc

[philqw78]

Any comments?

Marc

Best game I had against LH was one of Dave Ruddocks LH monsters at warfare. If you have cav charge, better still put any LH you have with your cav and charge at the same time. Think it was my Bactrian v his Parthian. It is worth chargin if disrupted because it gives a chance to bolster before being shot again. Think I caught 3 of his BG from behind. Mind you at the end of the game I was 1 AP from break and he was 1 move from my camp. But he didn't get there 'cos he was broken first. He had 17 BG v's my 12.

[dave_r]

Best game I had against LH was one of Dave Ruddocks LH monsters at warfare. If you have cav charge, better still put any LH you have with your cav and charge at the same time. Think it was my Bactrian v his Parthian. It is worth chargin if disrupted because it gives a chance to bolster before being shot again. Think I caught 3 of his BG from behind. Mind you at the end of the game I was 1 AP from break and he was 1 move from my camp. But he didn't get there 'cos he was broken first. He had 17 BG v's my 12.

Yes, I remember that game well....

I had three BG's caught on a 6-1 on the evade move (and they needed to be a 6-1, a 5-1 or a 6-2 wouldn't have been good enough..)

In my last turn I had some Cataphracts facing fragmented Cavalry, I was at plus and had four dice. I had a further four dice from various LH and LF needing 5's. I won the combat by two hits and phil threw a 12 and stood..... If they had broken, then Phil's army was gone.... I was also one move from the camp as mentioned.

In my turn Phil caught a BG of LH when at 4" with his LH. Routed them in impact and then pursued into the camp - game over

It was funny when he charged a BG of cataphracts in front and flank with his own Armoured Lancer Cavalry - end result? Two Broken Cavalry units

[ethan]

To address this issue the way Ethan intended, I put forth the following:

At Historicon I was, on multiple occasions, facing many BGs of shooty light horse with two BGs of shooty cav. I put the cav in line and charged whenever the Lh were in range. Upon reflection, I am not sure that was the best idea.

My reasoning was that, by charging right away, I saved myself a bound of received shooting and moved the Lh back toward the board edge that much more quickly, in exchange for a decreased likelihood of catching them during the evade. It worked tolerably well in one game, and poorly in the other (against more Lh).

Any comments?

Marc

Well let's see:

If you don't charge and move up to less than one inch away: If the LH make the 3" move and turn to face but they are still more than 3" away (although you may have limited their movement options a bit cutting down shooting) so you haven't increased you chances of catching them (still need a 6-1). If the cavalry fail the CT to move and turn they wind up facing away from you (which is good less shooting and worse options when evading).

If you charge you still need the 6-1 to catch them, but there is less shooting and (as you say you move farther potentially). The disadvantage is your cavalry line can be broken up making it easier for the LH to shoot in their turn.

Probably not a lot of difference.

The one time you should definitely charge is when the LH are at odd angles to your line, especially if you can get a flank/rear charge on some, as you have the chance of catching those LH as they flee across your front line.

[ottomanmjm]

I think there are a number of options available when fightinh LH swarms:
1) Terrain - there probably won't be much but try and place the terrain as close to the enemy's baseline as possible. They are not going to want to use it much and you can try and drive the LH back onto the terrain.
2) Try and force the LH to move where you want them to. Easier said than done, but by using BG's with two base frontages and getting the LH in your restricted zone it is possible herd them to some degree. Usually towards some Rough or difficult going if possible.
3) If you have mounted and want to charge try and team up two BG's of Cav or Cav and LH. Charge with one BG and then use the other to limit the opponents next move and to shot at the evaders if possible.
4) If you have good Cav then try and get through the LH line and get behind some of the LH. Your unit will probably draw lots of fire but if you can stop one or two enemy units evading then it is worth the risk. Offering the LH a flank attack may be one way to get them into contact.
5) If you have a mainly infantry army then use LF in front of your infantry to shoot at the LH. If the LF get Disrupted you can always pull them back to bolster them.
6) Flank march as a way to get behind the LH and deny them space.

LH armies like to have a lot of space behind them so the key to beating them is to limit this space.

Regards
Martin

[babyshark]

One thing that has occurred to me as I have been pondering this issue, is that many--even most--players get sloppy moving their light horse BGs. With a 7MU move and little need ever to take a CMT everyone knows that the Lh can get to where they need to be, and so both players eventually stop worrying about sweating the details of how they get there. And against an army with only a few BGs of Lh this may not matter much.

But against a Lh-based army, I think it matters a very great deal indeed. The trick for the Lh player is to set his BGs up so that they sit on the corners of your BGs, giving his shooting full effect and yours limited or no effect. This reduces the Lh risk to almost nothing. In my next game against an LH-based army I will insist--in the most gentlemanly manner possible--that all the 90 degree turn + simple advance moves (for example) be marked beforehand, properly measured, and front corners pinned for wheels. I suspect that this will make a great deal of difference in the flexibility of the Lh.

Any thoughts on that?

Marc

[dave_r]

One thing that has occurred to me as I have been pondering this issue, is that many--even most--players get sloppy moving their light horse BGs

That is what separates good players from average players - Ggod players don't make the silly mistakes.

But against a Lh-based army, I think it matters a very great deal indeed. The trick for the Lh player is to set his BGs up so that they sit on the corners of your BGs, giving his shooting full effect and yours limited or no effect

Having played many times against Light Horse armies with a light horse army what you say is indeed the case. What tends to happen is the player whose bound it is get's all the advantages and often manages to get lots of shooting against not very much. It can become very much a lottery and the person who first throws a one with a death roll is in big trouble. It is very important to get three element BG's out of the line very quickly.

Sometimes this goes on all game, other times one player get's bored and charges. It is a bit of a lottery though....

In my next game against an LH-based army I will insist--in the most gentlemanly manner possible--that all the 90 degree turn + simple advance moves (for example) be marked beforehand, properly measured, and front corners pinned for wheels. I suspect that this will make a great deal of difference in the flexibility of the Lh

That is just ensuring (in a gentlemanly fashion obviously) that the rules are adhered to. I can confirm it doesn't make light horse any less manoeverable.

Ask Tim Porter - but be warned the reply may take some time

[madaxeman]

I will insist--in the most gentlemanly manner possible--that all the 90 degree turn + simple advance moves (for example) be marked beforehand, properly measured, and front corners pinned for wheels. I suspect that this will make a great deal of difference in the flexibility of the Lh.
Any thoughts on that?
Marc

I am a strong advocate of this approach.

I think the key thing to remember if that the owner of LH army is not even deserving of the respect one might give to a wasp or a slug.

The type of person who is such a (insert expletive of your choice here. Suggested words include those which start with "T" and end with "osser") as to bring such a morally bankrupt and miserable army to a competition will have done so with the express intention of inflicting it on a range of opponents, all of whom will have travelled long distances in the expectation of a "proper" game against a "proper" army, but instead will suffer what is sure to be a thoroughly dismal and unpleasant experience playing against it.

As the opponent of such a lowlife, because they have planned for weeks to make your day miserable, I feel you are practically duty bound to reciprocate and also make their life as miserable as possible.

As your "proper" army will almost certainly lack the means to do this on table, you are therefore freed from any social contract as would pertain in a normal game where both players are human beings, and you are perfectly within your rights to "play like a complete (insert expletive of your choice here. Ideally starts with letter following B in alphabet)" and try and grind them down intellectually, emotionally and (ideally) physically through sheer bloody mindedness and being as pernickety and 'ornery* as you can.

I'm not sure it makes much difference to how maneuverable the LH end up being, but it can make you feel a whole lot better

tim

*I think that's what you colonials say when sat on your porches smoking corn cob pipes on a rocking chair behind a screen door?

[recharge]

I will insist--in the most gentlemanly manner possible--that all the 90 degree turn + simple advance moves (for example) be marked beforehand, properly measured, and front corners pinned for wheels. I suspect that this will make a great deal of difference in the flexibility of the Lh.
Any thoughts on that?
Marc

I am a strong advocate of this approach.

I think the key thing to remember if that the owner of LH army is not even deserving of the respect one might give to a wasp or a slug.

The type of person who is such a (insert expletive of your choice here. Suggested words include those which start with "T" and end with "osser") as to bring such a morally bankrupt and miserable army to a competition will have done so with the express intention of inflicting it on a range of opponents, all of whom will have travelled long distances in the expectation of a "proper" game against a "proper" army, but instead will suffer what is sure to be a thoroughly dismal and unpleasant experience playing against it.

As the opponent of such a lowlife, because they have planned for weeks to make your day miserable, I feel you are practically duty bound to reciprocate and also make their life as miserable as possible.

As your "proper" army will almost certainly lack the means to do this on table, you are therefore freed from any social contract as would pertain in a normal game where both players are human beings, and you are perfectly within your rights to "play like a complete (insert expletive of your choice here. Ideally starts with letter following B in alphabet)" and try and grind them down intellectually, emotionally and (ideally) physically through sheer bloody mindedness and being as pernickety and 'ornery* as you can.

I'm not sure it makes much difference to how maneuverable the LH end up being, but it can make you feel a whole lot better

tim

*I think that's what you colonials say when sat on your porches smoking corn cob pipes on a rocking chair behind a screen door?

So, how bad did you lose?

John

[deadtorius]

What if you just take your own shooty light horse army and try to shoot down his light horse with your light horse?
Fighting fire with fire....

[stenic]

What if you just take your own shooty light horse army and try to shoot down his light horse with your light horse?
Fighting fire with fire....

I think he's covered that one too

"The type of person who is such a (insert expletive of your choice here. Suggested words include those which start with "T" and end with "osser") as to bring such a morally bankrupt and miserable army to a competition will have done so with the express intention of inflicting it on a range of opponents"

Steve P

[rbodleyscott]

What Tim fails to mention (appreciate ?) is that commanding a LH army against a competently commanded non-LH-army is also very frustrating.

It has certainly put me off using LH armies except in themes where a battle is likely to occur. (i.e. Ones where a substantial proportion of the armies are cavalry/LH or Kn/LH armies).

[madaxeman]

So, how bad did you lose?
John

I believe I won - you;d need to check with Mr Ruddock for the exact shore though

[madaxeman]

What Tim fails to mention (appreciate ?) is that commanding a LH army against a competently commanded non-LH-army is also very frustrating.
It has certainly put me off using LH armies except in themes where a battle is likely to occur. (i.e. Ones where a substantial proportion of the armies are cavalry/LH or Kn/LH armies).

I do appreciate this actually - and I personally think using such armies against any sort of opponent is tedious and sometimes frustrating. But its effective - and clearly some people will prefer that to having proper entertaining games !

[dave_r]

I believe I won - you;d need to check with Mr Ruddock for the exact shore though

The exact score was 10-10. Which is what I presume you meant and not where the beach was? Tim's Morally Bankrupt Dom Rom Swarm lost 10/15 AP's and my morally upright and brave Skythians lost 12/17 AP's I think.

He did take some pictures of a particularly nice evade with some of my Cavalry though, which I am sure will have a full airing on the madaxeman site.

Comments throughout the game included:

"The evade rules were written by a Fox"
"The whole game was written by the authors so that they could simply manoever their LH around"
"What's the point"
"Do you honestly enjoy playing with Light Horse?"
"It's just wrong that you only lose 1 AP when fleeing off table"

I think Tim made sure at least one of the above statements was repeated at least once every three minutes or so

Despite Tim's comments above, I like playing with Light Horse armies

[lawrenceg]

I think what I need is an army of LH/bow to use against other LH armies, but can dismount as MF offensive spear to use against everything else.

Which book would I find that in?

[DaiSho]

I think what I need is an army of LH/bow to use against other LH armies, but can dismount as MF offensive spear to use against everything else.

Which book would I find that in?

Armoured MF Offensive Spear... that's the trick. Unprotected when on horseback, but Armoured when they dismount!

Ian