Separate DOW on Holland and Belgium

[ncali]

I don´t think this is a problem: France in winter turns will build its army as Germany will do. I mean Germany waiting until spring turns can build a large army to invade successfully both Benelux and France.

I think one issue is that the Allied player knows that France won't be around long and so they can completely ignore research and focus entirely on builds. Where as the Germany player needs to invest in research, which doesn't even start to pay off until after the fall of France. For example, in a game I'm currently playing the Allied player built an extra French tank corps.

I believe in an active French defense and I think more players should consider at least a small British commitment, which can sometimes bring significant benefits. Which brings up another point - and that is that if the British had sent no ground forces to help France and made no air commitment, they would have faced potentially serious political problems. I don't favor modeling this, but I thought I'd point it out. Would there have been a Free France if the British abandoned France to its fate with no support? Would Vichy have been more belligerent and anti-Allies?

This also brings up another point and that is that knowledge of what is likely to happen goes both ways. The Germans also didn't know that they would be able to conquer France by June of 1940. So there are things the player can do with that knowledge - like investing long-term in research instead of building or beginning preparations for an early invasion of the UK.

I'd prefer to leave the players with the flexibility to build and plan within the existing game paramaters - which account for long-shot "possibilites." It's fun and makes the game interesting that the French can build an extra fighter (which I saw in one game) if they want, the Italians can concentrate on developing their tanks and building tank corps, or the Germans can plan for a 1-2 punch against France and the UK.

[rkr1958]

This also brings up another point and that is that knowledge of what is likely to happen goes both ways. The Germans also didn't know that they would be able to conquer France by June of 1940. So there are things the player can do with that knowledge - like investing long-term in research instead of building or beginning preparations for an early invasion of the UK.

Good point.

I'd prefer to leave the players with the flexibility to build and plan within the existing game paramaters - which account for long-shot "possibilites." It's fun and makes the game interesting that the French can build an extra fighter (which I saw in one game) if they want, the Italians can concentrate on developing their tanks and building tank corps, or the Germans can plan for a 1-2 punch against France and the UK.

Having fun is one of the main objectives. For me, historical realism without scripting or hamstringing players strategies is another.

[gerones]

I think one issue is that the Allied player knows that France won't be around long and so they can completely ignore research and focus entirely on builds. Where as the Germany player needs to invest in research, which doesn't even start to pay off until after the fall of France. For example, in a game I'm currently playing the Allied player built an extra French tank corps. All other French PPs went for infantry corps, or repairs. Couple this with active participation from the Brits and this makes for one bloody affair for the Germans. Hopefully my heavy investment in research will play off later in the game. I have a heck of a lot of repairs left to do. Anyway ... I digress ...

To balance out better defensive terrain and winter weather effects in BJRv1.06 then I believe we need to consider somehow to restrict new French builds but allow them sufficient PPs for repairs. Basically, I feel we may need to consider CEaW engine or data file changes (i.e., not house rules) that mitigates the apriori knowledge that France is doomed and the use of their forces at any cost to inflict maximum damage on the Germans.

Winter effects in western Europe will make the game more realistic, but as certainly rkr says, it would have to restrict something because France can build more and more units during winter time and UK can increase BEF forces so that french and britain forces can really oppose firmly the germans and this way you can find games in wich the germans by december 1940 haven´t still defeated the french... Some may think when this happens the game become more enjoyable but I think that in that cases the game is really unbalanced so the germans with such a "fierly" allied resistance have nothing to do in the game since then...

[PDiFolco]

Seems to me the current problem with Holland/Belgium is that they have too much units, making the German invasion lasts 2-3 turns instead of the historical couple weeks... But then if they've a reduced army they'll fall by October -November 39 and it'll help the Germans too much against France.
So maybe the root problem is the ability of Germany to shift from Poland to the West too fast ? Winter rules should not change that much - I mean Belgium is no Siberia, has roads, towns ..- so why not rather nerf a bit German at start army and PP (war eco %) to more or less force it to prepare more lengthily the invasion of the West ?

I'm not that experienced in CEAW, but in my books Germany was not ready to take on a major by '39, their economy was not 100% war from far, and it took them 6 months to attack France, then a couple more years to ge their economy 100% war oriented.
Currently (with BJR mod, vanilla not better) Germany can more or less take simultaneously Poland, Denmark, Holland and Belgium, and has nearly enough of everything against France except an additional fighter, so attacks is usually before end of 39.