Need for greater historical accuracy for Indian Army Lists

[newbiesoldat]

Checked the both the revised lists of the later Indian Muslims and later Rajputs.

Firstly, the Indian Muslims, the list seems perfect to me, I don't think there is any need to edit it anymore. To me this looks perfect.

Secondly, the later Rajputs, the list is good, though I would recommend further decreasing the cap of Indian archers to 8 or 9, and raising Indian tribesmen to 6 at least. Reason being the bardic accounts such as that of Paboji, a Rathore chief who made his fortune with the help of the locals, narrate such interactions between the 'tribal' groups and the oncoming Rajputs, often referring to groups such as Bhils as 'Paradhi', which means hunter, and in the case of Bhils, the the bow was referred to as their chief weapon, while the Rajputs were characterized as using the lance and sword.

Again, we are really focusing in the micro here.

[newbiesoldat]

Again, the later Rajput list that you posted is pretty much fine already. I can't thank you enough for your efforts here, really grateful for this.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Again, the later Rajput list that you posted is pretty much fine already. I can't thank you enough for your efforts here, really grateful for this.

Heh I'll cut in and say no, thank you, we've had many people knowledgeable on many times and areas but India has been a gap. A Slitherine stream has mentioned that the next game in the series is in development, though no hint as to subject matter, and Richard is contractually obligated not to say. That said if the next game includes India in its subject matter, be sure to join the beta!

[newbiesoldat]

Thanks for the encouragement, and yes I do look forward to contributing if I can. Besides, it is not reasonable to expect Indian history, especially military history, to be easily or accurately accessible, in fact there still isn't a single half decent book on Indian military history that you can pick up off the shelves and get even a rough idea. The Indian history scene is dominated by Marxist, Annalist, Post Modernist and Subaltern discourse, not to mention the recent Nationalist splurge, very little systematic research has gone into looking at the primary texts and understanding how really the military aspects were handled, so the gap is but normal for Indian matters here.

[rbodleyscott]

Secondly, the later Rajputs, the list is good, though I would recommend further decreasing the cap of Indian archers to 8 or 9, and raising Indian tribesmen to 6 at least. Reason being the bardic accounts such as that of Paboji, a Rathore chief who made his fortune with the help of the locals, narrate such interactions between the 'tribal' groups and the oncoming Rajputs, often referring to groups such as Bhils as 'Paradhi', which means hunter, and in the case of Bhils, the the bow was referred to as their chief weapon, while the Rajputs were characterized as using the lance and sword.

Rajput2.jpg (135.99 KiB) Viewed 1138 times

[newbiesoldat]

Yes, this later Rajput Army list would be perfect in my opinion, thank you again.

[rbodleyscott]

All this is in the build for the next update, but I cannot currently say when that will be.

[newbiesoldat]

I understand, though is it reasonable to expect it in this year itself, hopefully?

[rbodleyscott]

I understand, though is it reasonable to expect it in this year itself, hopefully?

Yes. There will be an open beta first to test other changes.

[MVP7]

These were interesting posts by newbiesoldat and the revised lists look really nice.

[newbiesoldat]

I understand, though is it reasonable to expect it in this year itself, hopefully?

Yes. There will be an open beta first to test other changes.

Got it.
In case you have time and can indulge me further here with regard to the Army Lists, sorry for again raking up the discussion, I would like to propose some additional changes since I have come across some units that would better suit the two later Indian Muslim Army Lists (1340 and 1470), namely; the Muslim Light Cavalry and the Armored Muslim Lancers. I would suggest limiting their Expert Armoured Horse Archer cap to 2 (also making it non-compulsory), and Indian Horse Archer to 4 (again non-compulsory), and removing Nomad Light Horse Archers entirely. The reason for this is because after the later Delhi Sultanate and the regional Sultanates were dominated by Indo-Afghans, Indian Muslims and Muslim Rajputs. The Turco-Persian influence had faded away during this period, with only occasional mercenaries, represented by the lesser number of the horse archers.

I would recommend at least Armoured Muslim Lancers to be at least capped at 8, and Muslim Light Cavalry at around 10.

Secondly, can the Superior Indian Lancer's armor be upgraded to match that of the Armored Muslim Lancer? Both the units in my opinion should be equals, in consequence the cap of Superior Indian Lancer can be limited to 8, for balance reasons, plus it would make sense since these are representing elite landed cavalrymen. The Rajputs (both Hindu and Muslim) and the Afghans (including the Indo-Afghans), were known known for their charge and swordsmanship, as pointed in Baburnama and earlier texts as well, and so I think Armoured Muslim Lancers and Superior Indian Lancers would represent them well. Of course, the cost for Superior Indian Lancers should also be raised from 50 to 56 like other Armoured Lancers. Is this feasible from a balance POV?

Lastly, if there is a good Hindu Spearmen unit like the Veteran Muslim Spearmen, then I would recommend that for later Indian Muslim armies, and to a lesser extent for the Rajput armies. This is because the regional Sultanates like Malwa and Jaunpur, and even the later Mughals, recruited from the Purabiya Rajput communities of Eastern India, who unlike the Western Rajput (as portrayed in the Rajput Army List) were predominantly infantrymen. A record, probably an Indo Afghan account though I can't remember right now, mentions Purabiya Rajput Chiefs mustering some 200000 infantrymen in the service of the Jaunpur Sultans against the Lodhi Afghans. This number is probably a wild exaggeration, but we do see Purabiyas as an elite mercenary group in service of the Delhi, Jaunpur and Malwa Sultanates, and Mewar Rajputs. I would recommend a unit which is a bit lower than Veteran Muslim Spearman in quality, but more numerous, capped at 6 for the Indian Muslims and Indian Hindu North, and at 4 for Rajputs. I've not read primary sources for the Purabiya Rajputs, but I can recommend the work of Dirk Kolff (Naukar, Rajput and Sepoy) for information on the Purabiya military culture.

Alright, this is the last of my suggestions, I thank you for your patience.

[newbiesoldat]

These were interesting posts by newbiesoldat and the revised lists look really nice.

Thanks for the appreciation!

[rbodleyscott]

In case you have time and can indulge me further here with regard to the Army Lists, sorry for again raking up the discussion, I would like to propose some additional changes since I have come across some units that would better suit the two later Indian Muslim Army Lists (1340 and 1470), namely; the Muslim Light Cavalry and the Armored Muslim Lancers. I would suggest limiting their Expert Armoured Horse Archer cap to 2 (also making it non-compulsory), and Indian Horse Archer to 4 (again non-compulsory), and removing Nomad Light Horse Archers entirely. The reason for this is because after the later Delhi Sultanate and the regional Sultanates were dominated by Indo-Afghans, Indian Muslims and Muslim Rajputs. The Turco-Persian influence had faded away during this period, with only occasional mercenaries, represented by the lesser number of the horse archers.

I would recommend at least Armoured Muslim Lancers to be at least capped at 8, and Muslim Light Cavalry at around 10.

Secondly, can the Superior Indian Lancer's armor be upgraded to match that of the Armored Muslim Lancer? Both the units in my opinion should be equals, in consequence the cap of Superior Indian Lancer can be limited to 8, for balance reasons, plus it would make sense since these are representing elite landed cavalrymen. The Rajputs (both Hindu and Muslim) and the Afghans (including the Indo-Afghans), were known known for their charge and swordsmanship, as pointed in Baburnama and earlier texts as well, and so I think Armoured Muslim Lancers and Superior Indian Lancers would represent them well. Of course, the cost for Superior Indian Lancers should also be raised from 50 to 56 like other Armoured Lancers. Is this feasible from a balance POV?

Lastly, if there is a good Hindu Spearmen unit like the Veteran Muslim Spearmen, then I would recommend that for later Indian Muslim armies, and to a lesser extent for the Rajput armies. This is because the regional Sultanates like Malwa and Jaunpur, and even the later Mughals, recruited from the Purabiya Rajput communities of Eastern India. A record, probably though I can't remember right now, mentions Purabiya Rajput Chiefs mustering some 200000 infantrymen in the service of the Jaunpur Sultans against the Lodhi Afghans. This is probably a wild exaggeration, but we do see Purabiyas as an elite mercenary group in service of the Delhi, Jaunpur and Malwa Sultanates, and Mewar Rajputs. I would recommend a unit which is a bit lower than Veteran Muslim Spearman in quality, but more numerous, capped at 6 for the Indian Muslims, and at 4 for Rajputs. I've not read primary sources for the Purabiya Rajputs, but I can recommend the work of Dirk Kolff (Naukar, Rajput and Sepoy) for information on the Purabiya military culture.

Alright, this is the last of my suggestions, I thank you for your patience.

I must catch up on some other work, but will look at this closer when time permits. The beta isn't likely to start before September anyway.

[newbiesoldat]

Sure, and thanks again!

[rbodleyscott]

I would like to propose some additional changes since I have come across some units that would better suit the two later Indian Muslim Army Lists (1340 and 1470), namely:

The Muslim Light Cavalry and the Armored Muslim Lancers:

I would suggest limiting their Expert Armoured Horse Archer cap to 2 (also making it non-compulsory), and Indian Horse Archer to 4 (again non-compulsory), and removing Nomad Light Horse Archers entirely. The reason for this is because after the later Delhi Sultanate and the regional Sultanates were dominated by Indo-Afghans, Indian Muslims and Muslim Rajputs. The Turco-Persian influence had faded away during this period, with only occasional mercenaries, represented by the lesser number of the horse archers.

OK

I would recommend at least Armoured Muslim Lancers to be at least capped at 8, and Muslim Light Cavalry at around 10.

By "Light Cavalry", do you mean the (Average) "Indian Lancers" (Cavalry), or the "Muslim Light Horse (Javelins)" (Light Horse)?

If the latter, what is the evidence for large numbers of light horse with javelins?

Secondly, can the Superior Indian Lancer's armor be upgraded to match that of the Armored Muslim Lancer? Both the units in my opinion should be equals, in consequence the cap of Superior Indian Lancer can be limited to 8, for balance reasons, plus it would make sense since these are representing elite landed cavalrymen. The Rajputs (both Hindu and Muslim) and the Afghans (including the Indo-Afghans), were known known for their charge and swordsmanship, as pointed in Baburnama and earlier texts as well, and so I think Armoured Muslim Lancers and Superior Indian Lancers would represent them well. Of course, the cost for Superior Indian Lancers should also be raised from 50 to 56 like other Armoured Lancers. Is this feasible from a balance POV?

The problem is that "Armoured Muslim lancers" and "Superior Indian Lancers" share the same models and textures, so there cannot be both in the same army list, because they need to be distinguishable from each other on the battlefield.

We are not in a position to add new models or textures at this stage.

We could have an "Armoured Indian Lancers" (Superior), equivalent to the Armoured Muslim Lancers, and using the same model, but it would have to replace the "Superior Indian Lancers" completely in Muslim and Rajput armies after 1340, to avoid confusion.

However, what is the evidence for an increase in the availability of armour after 1340 relative to before 1340?

Lastly, if there is a good Hindu Spearmen unit like the Veteran Muslim Spearmen, then I would recommend that for later Indian Muslim armies, and to a lesser extent for the Rajput armies. This is because the regional Sultanates like Malwa and Jaunpur, and even the later Mughals, recruited from the Purabiya Rajput communities of Eastern India, who unlike the Western Rajput (as portrayed in the Rajput Army List) were predominantly infantrymen. A record, probably an Indo Afghan account though I can't remember right now, mentions Purabiya Rajput Chiefs mustering some 200000 infantrymen in the service of the Jaunpur Sultans against the Lodhi Afghans. This number is probably a wild exaggeration, but we do see Purabiyas as an elite mercenary group in service of the Delhi, Jaunpur and Malwa Sultanates, and Mewar Rajputs. I would recommend a unit which is a bit lower than Veteran Muslim Spearman in quality, but more numerous, capped at 6 for the Indian Muslims and Indian Hindu North, and at 4 for Rajputs. I've not read primary sources for the Purabiya Rajputs, but I can recommend the work of Dirk Kolff (Naukar, Rajput and Sepoy) for information on the Purabiya military culture.

I don't think we have a suitable unit model for this. Can you supply an illustration of what they might look like?

[newbiesoldat]

My mistake, I meant Muslim Cavalry (Light Spear), the unit which the Ghurids have. I think they are similar to the Indian Lancer unit, I wanted them to represent the Afghan tribal and Indo-Afghan element in the later Indian Muslim armies. I was hoping that the cap for them should be around 6, and Indian Lancers to be also 6 for the Indian Muslim Armies. The idea is to show the diverse ethnic and racial composition of the Cavalry of the later Sultanates, having both native Indians and the Afghans.

If there is no way to add both the Armoured Muslim Lancers and Superior Indian Lancers, then I suggest we stick with the Superior Indian Lancers for the Indian Muslims as well. I would recommend Superior Indian Lancers to be capped at 10 for the Rajputs, and around 8 for the Indian Muslims.

Note: I increased the cap for Indian Muslims having Superior Indian Lancers from 6 to 8 considering this would be the sole representation of their landed nobility and officers that formed the backbone of their armies since Armored Muslim Lancers cannot be added in the same list. Rajputs similarly can keep their cap at 10.


The evidence for greater armor comes mainly from manuscript, one such example being the Kanhadade Prabhanda, written in the 15th century, it is an epic covering the war between Jalore Chauhans and Khiljis which took place between 1296-1310. In that we find the mention armors called Jirahjina, for the rider, and Jayansal for the horse. To note here is the term 'Jirah' in Jirahjina comes from the Persian 'Zirah', the coat of mail armor. This was mentioned differently from the native armors such as Jinsal (hardened quilted cotton) and Angarakhi (Cuirass), or the Jalika (mail) which is mentioned in earlier texts. From the late 15th century we see more durable paper becoming widespread, and the Mughal paintings also show Rajputs as armored horse. So we can be sure that the native Indians (both Hindu and Muslim) and the Indo-Afghans had adopted to Persianate armor quite quickly. We can piece together that mailed horse was there since before the Turkic invasion, and more elaborate mail probably came from 1200 with the Ghurid invasion.

As for the Purabiya, unfortunately I've not gone through primary sources, and hence do not know beyond the book that I cited which does not mention beyond their role as infantrymen, but they were highly valued and formed the regular infantry, later also featured heavily in the Mughal and East India Company armies. Though maybe it can be left out for now.

PS: Some more thoughts on armor; there is a good chance that the Rajputs were using more elaborate mail prior to the 1200 as well, since texts such as that by Fakhr i Mudabbir do discuss the equipment of the opposing armies, and he mentions that the Ghurid and the Delhi Sultanate had an advantage over the Rajputs in archery thanks to the Turkic composite bow being superior to the Indian cane bow (called Kaman i Hind) which had lesser range. This is corroborated by Amir Khusrau's later account of Khilji campaigns, where he mentions the Hindu bows not having force as compared to the Turks'. On the other hand the text does give praise to the Indian swords which was considered arguably the best, which is especially reflected in the melee engagements. In fact, the Rajput tactics in battles mostly seemed to involve either ambush from multiple flanks or a quick charge (or sallies from the forts) to avoid giving the horse archers a chance to to surround and harass them down as they did in earlier engagements. As such if there was any appreciable armor disparity between the Indian and Ghurid armored contingents, the Persian sources would have probably mentioned it. So take this as a possibility.

[SimonLancaster]

I think the Indian lists needed some love. The armies were quite weak in my opinion..

[newbiesoldat]

I think the Indian lists needed some love. The armies were quite weak in my opinion..

I'm still very green with this game, but hopefully these changes will help in making them more playable or at least give them some unique character.

[rbodleyscott]

Here is what I have now for the Muslims:

Muslim1.jpg (147.63 KiB) Viewed 953 times

Muslim2.jpg (285.83 KiB) Viewed 953 times

Muslim3.jpg (294.58 KiB) Viewed 953 times

[rbodleyscott]

And for the Rajputs:

Rajput1.jpg (245.01 KiB) Viewed 952 times

Rajput2.jpg (256.06 KiB) Viewed 952 times