HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

[Mevelios]

I'm mostly playing hellene nations, and I must concur - stoas are a very powerful asset, probably still too powerful. Their standard money output by replacing the market associated to a nation-wide +5% is extremely strong, and whenever I build some I couldn't care less about the money crash event: it's nowhere close to the income, unless there's an incredible amount of money stored (probably meaning there are no big wars ongoing that need reinforcements). Same thing with administrative burden; I just forget about it, hence I also disregard any treasury.

Stoas can enable a wide worthless mercenary army with the simple task of laying as many sieges as possible to harass any competitor. It's not there to guarantee success against a well-organized force, it's here to harass as many walled cities as possible and can become painful if there's enough manpower around to add light cavalry (which is likely). Each contingent is disposable; if two of them go down this turn, as long as there are ten or twenty more of them around at work, it's fine. They can starve; if the besieger perk works its magic, the surrendering city will feed them soon enough.

Mind you, the same cumulative effect applies to the legacy-generating asklepieion. You can tell the simple +7% from the rebuilt hanging gardens in the 550 BCE scenario is handy (or the national medical school's 5%) but with these you can hit the +65% cap anywhere. 22 standing asklepieions is no small feat that could be achieved within 100 turns (at least I never managed to), but makes even undeveloped independant regions grow awfully fast within 20/30 turns.

As much as I enjoy it, it's honestly easy to abuse once one or two or your provinces are developed enough for some of their regions to allow T2 commerce & T3 health building with more or less +200 infrastructure/turn for convenience. The real counter mechanic is how difficult the draw can be in a large pool of buildings for these two: the stoa is lost amongst a large pool of buildings as long as the crafter district is standing, whereas the asklepieion requires the hospital.

I'm pretty sure the stoa's nation-wide perk could be toned down to 3%, and even then I'm not sure if it really takes away the interest of building as many of them as possible since its counter-mechanic (the money crash) is based on your money reserve if I got that one right, not on the income. TBH I could live with the nation-wide bonus being removed (along the money crash events) as long as the same is done to Judea, leaving the stoa as-is or possibly adding the fair's original bonuses to compensate to embody its strong mercantile identity (for a total of 6 bonuses by keeping the hellene's wine & olive oil, if I remember their differences right).

[Sarissofoi]

Sounds reasonable

[SuitedQueens]

What should STOAs do is increase Decadence gain nation-wide by 1% each. The regions where they are built should aslo suffer loyalty penalties and potential revolt increase to make sure player uses some of ghe extra gold on mercenearies to maintain Martial Law.

[Pocus]

The more you have, the higher the chance to get a crash-economy event. But I do like your suggestion, Suited-Queens

[SuitedQueens]

The more you have, the higher the chance to get a crash-economy event. But I do like your suggestion, Suited-Queens

I don't question your balance decision for the majority of players. It just Market Crashes don't affect efficient players that much, but might pose some problems for your average player game is balanced for. I will be starting the new detailed Carthage AAR without EXPORTED battles to see if they can keep up with STOA's power.

Its a bit off top, but there is still very powerful anti-AI cheat that could be used in MP games as well. Like in any 4X game the more powerful your Homeworld/Starting Location is, the faster snowball starts rolling. But thats where free Xploit comes in which I won't use in the AAR. You can drain AI powers by simply gifting or insulting them up to minimal threshold of like 35 to not get DOW'ed after entering and breaking Client State. In turn you get insane amount of BP's to suck their resources dry to supply your armies and further gifts for the other nations. Glad that Peacing Out via Clients and regional decisions without losing anything got fixed!

[Faultierasai]

Hello suitedQueens, i have read your last Post very carefully.
And i have Fear. I hope we never play against in a Game.

About your Carthage Game. The Carthaginian economy can easily defeat the greek Stoas. Provided you build the economy correctly.
I play this Game now around 2.800hours, mostly Carthage and i think i can beat the Greeks.

[SuitedQueens]

Hello suitedQueens, i have read your last Post very carefully.
And i have Fear. I hope we never play against in a Game.

About your Carthage Game. The Carthaginian economy can easily defeat the greek Stoas. Provided you build the economy correctly.
I play this Game now around 2.800hours, mostly Carthage and i think i can beat the Greeks.

Yea, I didnt even do the diplomatic exploits to gain insane amount of resources through selling your Client State status, or participating as a 3rd part in a 2 way war to grab territories of your ally/client/neutral nation. I didnt exploit trading provincial units (75 gold each) for AI regions. Only thing I did is min maxing economy, generals (suicided bad ones) and training my stacks to elite status ASAP by retalitions (+ gain extra slaves). I guess I did exploits insults to gain 100 relationship with almost everyone pretty quickly and gifts to the barbarians to prevent raiding and sneak attacks.

Insults allowed me to not blob for Combat Power concetration zones in Fog of War that AI measures. Also exploited objectives reallocation a bit to reduce my Age penalty by grabbing 4 Objective regions I wanted anyway. I was so powerful that I didnt even had to resort to harassment cavalry stacks. I conquered 3-5 regions per turn. 2 with main stack that was rushing to capital for the Diplo bonuses and blocking of National decisions like Emergency levy, while skirmishers and light horses and cavalry from the previous wars were cleaning up badly protected regions. Firthermore I exploited mass building demolish to instigate revolts in good regions in order to grab them for free without wasting War Scores. And thats in 4 theaters of war by turn 90 at the same time.

I was wrong about 1 thing: the 1st tax bracket for Administrative Burden starts at the 5000 good, not at 3000. And POP working in Commerce or Culture pays higer taxes than POP on food or hammers, which I forgot to mention. I forgot to say that you should min max your provincial capitals placement. New capital after the initial placement would be errected at the highest current Culture production per region. You want those capitals in chokepoints to house your stack for 25% upkeep reduction and quick forces raise for reaction or offensive actions. In the naval provinces betrer have your capital at the port region to reduce Naval stack upkeep as well, bit they would have to stay in port unfortunately, which means no zone of control pas the regular sweep patrols you order every turn.

[Faultierasai]

So in this points we use the same tactics.
Only as Carthage I use mercenaries as raiders, almost all of my manpower goes into the fleet. Normaly i have two - max. 3 Battlegroups and 3-4 Fleets. The most Battlegroups are Mercs. Carthage has here Access to Hoplites with 3 LP, also Heavy Infantry.

In order to boost the economy, each region in the province is initially specialized in order to reach 20 inhabitants as quickly as possible. Then comes the fine work.
I have normaly only a Handfull of Tradehubs here
- Oea, Melita, Carthage, Corsica, Rusucuru, Malaka and Emporia
maybe Tingitana
- then i build in every Province one - max 2 Marketplace (because it is impossible to become al needed Goods)
and the Rest are normaly Regions.

To build an full Province i need normaly (with good Luck and no bad Events) around 120 - 130 Rounds

I guess I did exploits insults to gain 100 relationship with almost everyone pretty quickly and gifts to the barbarians to prevent raiding and sneak attacks. Ok, here i do it different. Normaly Mauretania raids me permanently. If you sent a Unit in the Region to defend, she earn XP if she beat an Attack back (but it looks like a rare thing, sometimes i see this, sometimes not)

[SuitedQueens]

So in this points we use the same tactics.
Only as Carthage I use mercenaries as raiders, almost all of my manpower goes into the fleet. Normaly i have two - max. 3 Battlegroups and 3-4 Fleets. The most Battlegroups are Mercs. Carthage has here Access to Hoplites with 3 LP, also Heavy Infantry.

Honestly Heavy Infantry is not needed in big numbers until like turn 125. You adapt to their stack composition. For heavies my minimal requirement is 6 move points on hills, deserts and plains towards the capital. That includes common lvl 1 public roads, river crossings and generals bonuses. Yes, its all about your tempo and knowing how to manipulate AI vision to bait them from cities or other chokepoints. I send less than 6 movepoints forces in advance for potential assault targets and mountains/forests/marshes where I have to brute force. Therefore most of my active anti-capital stacks frontline for plains and hills mostly composed from the medium cavalry, medium infantry and like 2-3 fast heavies. Mountaneer and Desertman traits are OP btw. The best units are fast with high attack and high ranged defense.

Same for the fleets. I have 2 fleets 60% from light ships to fill up frontage 30% regulars and 10% heavies. And separate single unit light ship scouts and naval blockers. Until like turn 150 AI wont have competent fleets with quality ships or wide enough frontage. These stacks are cheaper, so allows me to maintain attscking on 4 fronts with 2-3 stacks. One for the capital and even faster supports.

In order to boost the economy, each region in the province is initially specialized in order to reach 20 inhabitants as quickly as possible. Then comes the fine work.
I have normaly only a Handfull of Tradehubs here
- Oea, Melita, Carthage, Corsica, Rusucuru, Malaka and Emporia
maybe Tingitana
- then i build in every Province one - max 2 Marketplace (because it is impossible to become al needed Goods)
and the Rest are normaly Regions.

To build an full Province i need normaly (with good Luck and no bad Events) around 120 - 130 Rounds

I completely agree with said strategy. You can read the finer details in my Discord FoG Kingdoms group concerned with starvation, slave manipulation to increase conversion rates, reevaluating your reguons after the initial growth you are talking about. You should consider one thing about buildings. Structures that manufacture or import smth always great, cuz they increase the background weights of appearance of the rare buildings requiring those trade goods as bonuses.

[Faultierasai]

I completely agree with said strategy. You can read the finer details in my Discord FoG Kingdoms group concerned with starvation, slave manipulation to increase conversion rates, reevaluating your reguons after the initial growth you are talking about. You should consider one thing about buildings. Structures that manufacture or import smth always great, cuz they increase the background weights of appearance of the rare buildings requiring those trade goods as bonuses.

Correct, that is the Backbone of the carthaginian Business.
You need in a Tradehub normaly 40 Pops and can reach around 185% Tradevalue (without Events or else).
To save money and time i produce more than one Good at a Tradeplace.

I need normaly around 40 Pops in a Tradehub (Decadence increaser)
25 - max. 30 in every Marketregion
and around 20 in a Standardregion. (here i have neg. Decadence)
to become so fast as possible my needed Pops i install slavemarkets in every Tradehub and Market and buy what i can.
If i reach my goal, the slavemarket is destroyed.

In the long run i sell the slaves and see pops are growing.....but this need a lot of time.

Karthago: Tools, Pottery, Ceramic, Oliveoil, Sails, Ivory
Oea: Silk, Fabric, Cattle, Horse
Melita: Papyrus, Grain, Coral, Myrrh
Rusucuru: Wine, Salt, Flax, Hemp, Iron, Copper
Corsica: Lead, Wood, Stone, Weapons, Leather
Garamantia: wild Beasts, Gold

Malaka: Gold, Keramic, Oliveoil
Lixus: Grain, Papyrus, Horse, Cattle, Purple
Emporio: has Amber, Background for Perfume, Wool, Fabric, Perfume, Jewels

Every Tradehub brings normaly around 500 Gold per Good.

Thats works perfectly for carthage. Only if you have 7 or less Traderange. If you have more one or two Tradehubs become obsolet and fight each other. That is the Reason why i am not a Fan on of State Tier 3, the Empire. Yes you become more culture, better units...but you become +1 Traderange and lost 15% Tradebonus from the republic.

Normaly i take Spain and northern africa and that is enough. If you build all corectly you will have around 120 Regions (i am not sure...but i think so), every gives you 6 Legacy Points (5 from Culture and one from the Temples). That is enough to win the game.

I will come and have a look to your Discord Channel.

About your Army Composition, i fight all my Battles in Singleplayer on FOG, with a lousy General you will need your heavy Infantry. Latest if you fight against rome.

[SuitedQueens]

Correct, that is the Backbone of the carthaginian Business.
You need in a Tradehub normaly 40 Pops and can reach around 185% Tradevalue (without Events or else).
To save money and time i produce more than one Good at a Tradeplace.

I need normaly around 40 Pops in a Tradehub (Decadence increaser)
25 - max. 30 in every Marketregion and around 20 in a Standardregion. (here i have neg. Decadence) to become so fast as possible my needed Pops i install slavemarkets in every Tradehub and Market and buy what i can.
If i reach my goal, the slavemarket is destroyed.

So, my view is completely centered around the amount of stacks you can field supported by your economy. Therefore slaves, fast growth and native pops are always great. You need more POPs (around 20) for Manpower and slots that support Military and Health buildings that produce manpower + increase your Military Expertiese for the higher quality generals (kill bad ones with 1 light horse or skirmisher sacrificial stacks), improved walls and garrisons (antiAI aggression) and weapon selling & tools bonuses. The other regions focus on culture after the initial growth to offset massive territories you gonna be gaining temporarily during blitzkrieg wars. The 3rd type is Tax Heavens and Trade Hubs that are the most important alongside Manpower regions. 4th type usually singleton are supporting food (for Papyrus and sustain) and Infrastructure (hill specific buildings like Marble Vein) regions.

In the long run i sell the slaves and see pops are growing.....but this need a lot of time.

Selling slaves I only do rarely when my cash in negative. Instead I keep as many Slave Markets as I can to maximize slaves buying and dispersing decisions. Thats is perfect to increase your native population percentage via slaves in the regions you intend to keep after the war for the increased base ethic convertion of the mixed pops that ktherwise can be too slow and inconsistent. Filling up your regions with native slaves and starving mixed population at the same time (-1 food equal to 1% chance of the random pop dying) to maximize the chances of a new pop born become your native ethnicity converts regions way faster. Add on top of that fighting Retaliotion wars to get Resources and Legacy in the peace deal + native slaves for combats speeds up that process as well.

Thats works perfectly for carthage. Only if you have 7 or less Traderange. If you have more one or two Tradehubs become obsolet and fight each other. That is the Reason why i am not a Fan on of State Tier 3, the Empire. Yes you become more culture, better units...but you become +1 Traderange and lost 15% Tradebonus from the republic.

15% is the real deal here. Trade Range increae is always good and its capped at 8 anyway. Quick overwiew: trade routes recalculated every turn at the beggining before the combat, so sieges and naval blockades dont take the effect right away or dont dissapear on the next turn. Your region chooses from who to import based on the multipliers: 3 (if your own or other nation with Coop Treaty) x Trade Accumen of producing region (Carthage starts every region with 7 base as Trading nation) x Proximity coeff. (closer regions receive more weight) x Current Relationship coeff.

So without Coop threaty your Trade regions will be splitting Trade Goods anyway, ehich is no net loss if bith have the same commerce bonus. Without Coop Treaty opponent regions have 1x multiplier instead of 3x. But if he has 3 1x regions with the same accumen producing good neaby you have 50/50 chance to chose your region or one of theirs.

About your Army Composition, i fight all my Battles in Singleplayer on FOG, with a lousy General you will need your heavy Infantry. Latest if you fight against rome.

Yea, I dont export too, cuz game doesnt balanced around thst. I can beat FoG 2 AI on Deity 9/10 times with almost any army. I usually dont fight against Rome. My typical targets are Greeks for World Wonders and hogh accumulated culture high base pop good ethic quality regions. Then Antigonids for archers. Spain for how easy is to defeat barbarians with reduced frontage elite troops. Then my gaze falls upon Egypt, North Africa and Caucas region. I can kill Rome easily, but then O wont be fighting on so many theaters of war.

[Faultierasai]

So, my view is completely centered around the amount of stacks you can field supported by your economy. Therefore slaves, fast growth and native pops are always great. You need more POPs (around 20) for Manpower and slots that support Military and Health buildings that produce manpower + increase your Military Expertiese for the higher quality generals (kill bad ones with 1 light horse or skirmisher sacrificial stacks), improved walls and garrisons (antiAI aggression) and weapon selling & tools bonuses. The other regions focus on culture after the initial growth to offset massive territories you gonna be gaining temporarily during blitzkrieg wars. The 3rd type is Tax Heavens and Trade Hubs that are the most important alongside Manpower regions. 4th type usually singleton are supporting food (for Papyrus and sustain) and Infrastructure (hill specific buildings like Marble Vein) regions.

Ok, here we are different. As Carthage i have 3 different Regions for Military.
- Numidia for the light Cavalry, has 6 Regions, it is also my Mainsource of Iron.
- the spanish Province with the Balearic Slinger has 6 Regions
and the spanish Region in the west from it, has 8 Regions for my heavy Infantry.

The Capital of the Province give 10 XP in the Baracks, and 5 XP per Barack and Region = 45XP
then you have special Buildings like military Academy, weaponsmith for the noric Steel gives also 10XP = 55 XP
I have also three sprecialized military Regions wich gives me 3-4 Star xP Units from Start.

Manpower, als Carthage i don´t need it. Because i have Spain and northern Africa. Thats all around 100 Regions.
With the working Business every brings around 500 Gold, the Marketplaces around 1K and the Tradehubs 3-4K Gold.
I have normaly in the lategame an Income of 50K Gold per Round. Whatever a Greek has an Stoas, i beat him with ease.
The most of my Fieldarmies here are Mercs. And everybody loves me and my Gold.

Unfortunaly Carthage has no Access to middle or heavy Cavalry as Mercs. It is expensive to wait for the event:
Hire Mercenaries from Nighbors for 1K Gold and disband 9 of 10 Units only to become one medium Cav.

Filling up your regions with native slaves and starving mixed population at the same time (-1 food equal to 1% chance of the random pop dying) to maximize the chances of a new pop born become your native ethnicity converts regions way faster. Add on top of that fighting Retaliotion wars to get Resources and Legacy in the peace deal + native slaves for combats speeds up that process as well.

Good to know. I never use this. Thanks for this Advice.

Yea, I dont export too, cuz game doesnt balanced around thst. I can beat FoG 2 AI on Deity 9/10 times with almost any army.

How true, how true. The KI can only frontal attacks. I have my own Battleformation, an adaption of the roman Triple Axis. I lost only when my Opponent has more then 3 times more Troops than me. How often is this? Not so often in a Game.

You use antigonid Archers? Not the Horsearcher and Cataphractoi from the sarmatian/ alanian Stepes? Look what she can. I use Balearic Slinger only as Prestigeunits but for the real Wars the Javelin thrower from the Desert. She beat any Footarcher. And more the famous numidian Rider

[Faultierasai]

Trade Range increae is always good and its capped at 8 anyway.

No, it is not. I can have 7 Traderange with my Buildings and +1 with Tier 3 in Gouverment.
Plus the Lighthouse of Alexandria gives +1 Traderange
the Colossus of Rhodes gives +1 Traderange ( i hope that was not changed)
and than you have the Traderangeevent what give Acumen and Range

The Problem here is, i produce Tools in Carthage and happy with Range 7 or less.
Because i can build Tools in one of the Regions of Lusitania as sec. Tradehub for Tools. Both have full access to all Regions.
With more then 7 Regions, i have only Carthage and see often enough a Borderregion has lost the Access, because Lusitania becomes obsolet.

That is the Reason why i have my military, Stone, Lead, Wood Production in Corsica. The most of the Customer has Access. The Border to France need a second Tradehub.

[SuitedQueens]

Ok, here we are different. As Carthage i have 3 different Regions for Military.
- Numidia for the light Cavalry, has 6 Regions, it is also my Mainsource of Iron.
- the spanish Province with the Balearic Slinger has 6 Regions
and the spanish Region in the west from it, has 8 Regions for my heavy Infantry.

I give away Balearic Slingers region instantly since I have no interest in conquering the rest of the regions from that province and it starts pretty poor with low base POP, so will take a long time to grow past 15 POP. And on top of that can't really upgrade the building value via Bonus goods since its hard to import them wasting slots on "call in" buildings. As this region won't be part of the province Decadence and Adm. Burden bonuses from the Suicidal difficulty make owning it questionable. Middle of the Spain is very suspect due to being mountainous for the most part, while you already have access to the coast line.

Numidia and Desert regions in general are trash for games where you don't plan to go long. I wait for the Good Administrator leader to use Free Region Regional Decision in order to turn one of those into a new Client State. They will conquer and develop those neutral regions faster due to AI bonuses, or I gonna do it for them to gift those region to them for free. West Africa I give away except one region with 6 starting POP that I usually develop and trade for the better region in the midgame. You can hire light cavalry mercs from North Africa as Carthage that are great without needing provincial units.

I conquer South Spain for resources and it serves as my Metal region, and place where I can recruit Cavalry with Mountaineer trait, which along Desertic is super OP due to how the global map terrain laid out. Woodsmen would be great, but you don't want those low value regions anyway, so you always ignore them. And cavalry will be in the 3rd row in woods anyway which also doesn't have flanking squares. Steppes modifier in the middle of the pack. The reason for that is at least one nations there will have Legacy banked you want to take. Usually Sarmats or Alanes.

The Capital of the Province give 10 XP in the Baracks, and 5 XP per Barack and Region = 45XP
then you have special Buildings like military Academy, weaponsmith for the noric Steel gives also 10XP = 55 XP
I have also three sprecialized military Regions wich gives me 3-4 Star xP Units from Start.

You have to remember that the max bonus of non-Capital regions amounts to 25 XP per unit type and/or 2 stars contributed whatever is higher. Military buildings in the provincial capital can stack up forever. Only highest manpower percentage boost applies to the whole province. One of the reason why manipulating Provincial Capital reallocation via highest Culture Production region is important.

Manpower, als Carthage i don´t need it. Because i have Spain and northern Africa. Thats all around 100 Regions.
With the working Business every brings around 500 Gold, the Marketplaces around 1K and the Tradehubs 3-4K Gold.
I have normaly in the lategame an Income of 50K Gold per Round. Whatever a Greek has an Stoas, i beat him with ease.
The most of my Fieldarmies here are Mercs. And everybody loves me and my Gold.

I wage wars on multiple fronts early on, so I need both levied stacks supported by manpower and mercenaries feeding off gold. As you said fleets drain manpower as well and I can't dump all manpower into naval. Manpower is one of the statistics AI uses to gauge if they should attack you or not. Furthermore its always worth a ton in Diplomatical exchanges since AI stuck in the wars constantly at 0 or negative Manpower. About STOAs: you are talking about AI. This topic is concerned with another player playing efficiently. A few STOAs combined with the better regions than Spain and Africa from Carthage pushes Greeks on top. The market crush won't affect you since you keep current gold below the 5000 at all time to maximize your income. Thats also why Treasury exists in the game - to help your reduce the current stockpile in order to not get taxed by Administrative Burden that has increased modifiers on Suicidal difficulty.

Unfortunaly Carthage has no Access to middle or heavy Cavalry as Mercs. It is expensive to wait for the event:
Hire Mercenaries from Nighbors for 1K Gold and disband 9 of 10 Units only to become one medium Cav.

They have actually. If you don't know you can hire Medium Cavalry mercs in any Gallia region without owning the province there. I usually mix in those merc horses, South Spain provincial horses, light horses and chariots (Carthaginian War Chariots) you get from that decision if you close to the Egypt or other nations that can produce them like Pontus, Bosporus, etc. Elephants destroy everything in the open, steppes or in Deserts with no risk which is better than Heavy Cavalry since you always attacking anyway.

You use antigonid Archers? Not the Horsearcher and Cataphractoi from the sarmatian/ alanian Stepes? Look what she can. I use Balearic Slinger only as Prestigeunits but for the real Wars the Javelin thrower from the Desert. She beat any Footarcher. And more the famous numidian Rider

Horse Archers definitely the best unit in the game, but you have to go for the above 100 turn wins to get those. That is if you won't engage into exploits by gifting/insulting relationship increase to 25 to gift away one of those bad Desert regions in the North Africa in order to trade Provincial Units from the start. Antigonids is my 2nd target after Greece usually. The last game in the first 60 turns I conquered in order: Syracuse one region to form the province and leave them alive. They rarely get in the war with someone else and hoard resources for the Diplomatic Trading. Got friendly with Crete and bought 3 or 4 archers in total. Wiped Green League greeks meanwhile to grab World Wonders, good regions and POP and create the launching pad region. That was enough to take Minor Asia continental part from Antigonids to hire more archers, while at the same time different stack trained in Syracuse was destroying South Spain. Used archers, siege expert and naval support to assault Byzintia and Athenes. 10 turns peace with ANtigonids ended, so I took their island fortified territories and capital.

After those initial 60 turns I checked who had the most Legacy. Went in major wars where I dedicated stacks for Legacy (no territories) grabs from Epirus, Gaetuli, Numidia, Nassamones, Egypt, Pontus, Alani and Sarmates.

No, it is not. I can have 7 Traderange with my Buildings and +1 with Tier 3 in Gouverment.
Plus the Lighthouse of Alexandria gives +1 Traderange
the Colossus of Rhodes gives +1 Traderange ( i hope that was not changed)
and than you have the Traderangeevent what give Acumen and Range

Ok, so according to Pocus and empirical evidence you capped at 8 TR. I guess World Wonders push this number past the threshold. I never in position to play for that tho. That was done in order to prevent importing goods from half across the world. I think you for sure right that National Decision goes past the 8 TR similar to how National Decions for Health rolls over default 65% Health cap.

The Problem here is, i produce Tools in Carthage and happy with Range 7 or less.
Because i can build Tools in one of the Regions of Lusitania as sec. Tradehub for Tools. Both have full access to all Regions.
With more then 7 Regions, i have only Carthage and see often enough a Border region has lost the Access, because Lusitania becomes obsolete.
That is the Reason why i have my military, Stone, Lead, Wood Production in Corsica. The most of the Customer has Access. The Border to France need a second Tradehub.

Ok, so whats is Trade Hub stands for? I assume taht the region that has Commerce buildings that increase Commerce Bonus combined with Trade goods production you use for the exports to maximize the gold income? Hard to wrap my head around why increased Importing Range would be bad. You have rather low chance to important from the other nation region if you maximized Acumen in Trade Hub and don't have good relationships (above 25) and Cooperation Treaty signed with them. You make big money by Exporting to "call in" regions. Exporting region is the one that needs Commerce Bonuses since they don't work for Importers.

Or the issue lies in more common Imports? Like you have Cattle placed in the Trade Hub, but some of your regions "call in" Cattle from opponent regions? Trade Routes recalculated every turn, so sometimes you get unlucky, but most of the times you won't even notice. Factors like Relationships coeff, Proximity coeff, Trade Acumen, lack of Cooperation treaty or Alliance make sure your "call in" regions has about 85% to Import from your Trade Hub.

[Faultierasai]

As first, sorry for my Absence. Job was calling.

I give away Balearic Slingers region instantly since I have no interest in conquering the rest of the regions from that province and it starts pretty poor with low base POP, so will take a long time to grow past 15 POP. And on top of that can't really upgrade the building value via Bonus goods since its hard to import them wasting slots on "call in" buildings. As this region won't be part of the province Decadence and Adm. Burden bonuses from the Suicidal difficulty make owning it questionable. Middle of the Spain is very suspect due to being mountainous for the most part, while you already have access to the coast line.

Numidia and Desert regions in general are trash for games where you don't plan to go long. I wait for the Good Administrator leader to use Free Region Regional Decision in order to turn one of those into a new Client State. They will conquer and develop those neutral regions faster due to AI bonuses, or I gonna do it for them to gift those region to them for free. West Africa I give away except one region with 6 starting POP that I usually develop and trade for the better region in the midgame. You can hire light cavalry mercs from North Africa as Carthage that are great without needing provincial units.

I conquer South Spain for resources and it serves as my Metal region, and place where I can recruit Cavalry with Mountaineer trait, which along Desertic is super OP due to how the global map terrain laid out. Woodsmen would be great, but you don't want those low value regions anyway, so you always ignore them. And cavalry will be in the 3rd row in woods anyway which also doesn't have flanking squares. Steppes modifier in the middle of the pack. The reason for that is at least one nations there will have Legacy banked you want to take. Usually Sarmats or Alanes.

I have always conquerd this Regions. Yes in the Beginning it is a Problem with Decadence, but you can handle it. Africa, the Region direct to Carthage, is my main Source of Cultural Building. Normaly it creates more than enough to compensate the Decadence in Spain and North Africa. The other cultural Income are the Amphitheater. I build them so fast as i can. He import Silk and generate an Income from Oea and produce Cultur.

You have to remember that the max bonus of non-Capital regions amounts to 25 XP per unit type and/or 2 stars contributed whatever is higher. Military buildings in the provincial capital can stack up forever. Only highest manpower percentage boost applies to the whole province. One of the reason why manipulating Provincial Capital reallocation via highest Culture Production region is important.

Exact so, i have givem my Answer in short words, because you know what i mean.

Ok, so whats is Trade Hub stands for? I assume taht the region that has Commerce buildings that increase Commerce Bonus combined with Trade goods production you use for the exports to maximize the gold income? Hard to wrap my head around why increased Importing Range would be bad.

Exactly, A Tradehub like Carhage produce a needed Good (as example Tools). To increase the Income i build every building there what increase the Trade%. Normaly you pay 7 Gold per Tool (you own Nation pay only the half). But increase this with 185% Tradeincome you stay around 18 - 20 Gold per Piece. And on top of this comes the Taxrate, here i have normaly around 30%...makes another 2 Gold. Also you can make around 20 Gold for one Tool in Carthage.

Traderange, a long Traderange is good if you have only one Source of a neede Good, as example Silk from Oea. There is only one Producer in the western Area, so he take all Customer.
You have a lot of Customers there, normaly minimal 50-60. And every brings you around 20 Gold per Round.

But, if you have more place with a neede Good, as example Wine, Cattle or Papyrus you have a big problem.
Every Round the Buyer looks for a Producer and can change the Producer. I think you know that.
The Problem starts in the Moment when you need Cattle and have a Traderange of 5 (as Example)...and buy from a Producer at Range 6. He is out of Range, and you pay the Penalty. I see this to often in any Carthage Games, especial in any Regions in Spain.

Carthage needs Money, his only Source of Survive. To fix this Problem, you must build more Tradehubs. That means every Tradehub has less Customer (as example Malake and Carthage both produce Tools and fight about every Customer). Unfortunaly that is not so easy. I need 40 Pops in this Region....if you build one in a Desertregion, good luck to feed them all.
I hope you understand what i mean, it looks for me like a Mistake in the Programming.

[SuitedQueens]

I have always conquerd this Regions. Yes in the Beginning it is a Problem with Decadence, but you can handle it. Africa, the Region direct to Carthage, is my main Source of Cultural Building. Normaly it creates more than enough to compensate the Decadence in Spain and North Africa. The other cultural Income are the Amphitheater. I build them so fast as i can. He import Silk and generate an Income from Oea and produce Culture.

Decadence is not the primary concern here. Your Administrative Burden can support with Discounts 10 regions, so you have to make sure that your most costly regions are high quality. These Desert regions and island with 4 starting POP are terrible compared to Hellinistic lands and Egyptian lands due to: low base pop (harder growth), lack of aligned regions (in case of islands), lower food production (deserts), not enough good resources like precious metals, marble, salt or wine (africa, conquer wild beasts and gift them to someone), lower quality Desertic population taking longer time to convert and lower base loyalty capping welfare bonus for these regions (africa and spain besides starting regions), no required provincial units as Carthage (like archers or horse archers), no potential for culture accumalation from local AIs (but they can garner a lot of legacy you can take in easy wars later).

And on top of this comes the Taxrate, here i have normaly around 30%...makes another 2 Gold. Also you can make around 20 Gold for one Tool in Carthage.

I dont think Tax Rate applies to Trade. Only POPs pay it. Native POPs working in Commerce or Culture pay the biggest tax.

Traderange, a long Traderange is good if you have only one Source of a neede Good, as example Silk from Oea. There is only one Producer in the western Area, so he take all Customer.

You have a lot of Customers there, normaly minimal 50-60. And every brings you around 20 Gold per Round.

Yes, but for argument sake. Imagine that you have two trade hubs producing silk with the SAME commercial bonus percsntsge. No matfer how new trade routes gonna be generated the net income stays the same. The difference occurs only when Trade Hub 1 has more commerce than Trade Hub 2.

But, if you have more place with a neede Good, as example Wine, Cattle or Papyrus you have a big problem.
Every Round the Buyer looks for a Producer and can change the Producer. I think you know that.

Do you mean if you produce said common good in many other non-Trade Hub places? Chance of picking those regions should be lower since Trade Hubs have more Acumen. And then you shoukd place common good strategically. You dont need many Cattles as you have Smokehouses network to spread ot aroind, Taverns for wine and Education builsings for Papyrus. So in some sense higher Trading Range is nice to build less Ranches, Vineyards and Irrigstion Canals.

The Problem starts in the Moment when you need Cattle and have a Traderange of 5 (as Example)...and buy from a Producer at Range 6. He is out of Range, and you pay the Penalty. I see this to often in any Carthage Games, especial in any Regions in Spain.

No, you cant bit from the region above your trade range i.e. Trade good is missing when you have the alternatives in TR. Potentially producer was blocked the last turn, so you loat the access to resource temporarily, or you are currently in qar with them.

Carthage needs Money, his only Source of Survive. To fix this Problem, you must build more Tradehubs. That means every Tradehub has less Customer (as example Malake and Carthage both produce Tools and fight about every Customer). Unfortunaly that is not so easy. I need 40 Pops in this Region....if you build one in a Desertregion, good luck to feed them all.
I hope you understand what i mean, it looks for me like a Mistake in the Programming.

It doesnt matter hoe customers are split if you have the same Commerce bonus in each Trade Hub. Money go up in value around turn 70 and on due to the fact that you want to spam Regional decisions, disband and hire new mercenaries, create new armies, national decisions cost based on the amount of regions you have, engage in Diplomacy, pay increased Administrative Burden, buy slaves at every opportunity.

Witj big trade range you need less Trade Hubs actually - thats the point. You need less Supply (since its infinite) and more Demand with high TRsde Range (so Supply zones cover more Demand zones). No moatskes in programming as far as I can tell.

[Surt]

Last I played this was an issue, is it patched now?

[Faultierasai]

No it is not, we have the same Problems.

[kokkorhekkus]

If cumulative stoas unbalance the game there is a solution : agrement for a maximum of ONE stoa per greek faction, it's more logical with the whole rules of bonuses

[Faultierasai]

Everything, but not that. Each greek Nation now needs as many stoas as it can get. Thanks to the many updates and patches (which create more problems for each other), owning is now a matter of survival in the late game. The AI is not able to take advantage of the bonuses of the Stoa, so you don't have to worry for an overpowered Nation.