About the Crécy scenario

[SnuggleBunnies]

Setting aside the debate about game vs simulation, I'd also say we need to be careful about what we "know" -

https://www.medievalists.net/2015/09/ne ... iscovered/

or, at length in podcast form:

https://www.medievalists.net/2021/12/battle-crecy-1346/
https://www.medievalists.net/2022/02/ba ... 46-part-2/

This is an *extremely* convincing case by a respected scholar in the field, backed by Kelly DeVries (most notably IMO author of 'Infantry Warfare in the Early Fourteenth Century'), another big name in the study of Medieval warfare, arguing that the battle did not take place in the site that has been traditionally claimed.

[Karvon]

There's nothing to stop you from revising the scenario using the game editor to suit your interpretation of the facts. Share it with the community to provide an alternative history.

Regards,

Karvon

[Dux Limitis]

There's nothing to stop you from revising the scenario using the game editor to suit your interpretation of the facts. Share it with the community to provide an alternative history.

Regards,

Karvon

I'm not an expert about modding,besides,the official version of Crécy for now is an "Alternative" history because of the reasons already pointed out.

[Dux Limitis]

Setting aside the debate about game vs simulation, I'd also say we need to be careful about what we "know" -

https://www.medievalists.net/2015/09/ne ... iscovered/

or, at length in podcast form:

https://www.medievalists.net/2021/12/battle-crecy-1346/
https://www.medievalists.net/2022/02/ba ... 46-part-2/

This is an *extremely* convincing case by a respected scholar in the field, backed by Kelly DeVries (most notably IMO author of 'Infantry Warfare in the Early Fourteenth Century'), another big name in the study of Medieval warfare, arguing that the battle did not take place in the site that has been traditionally claimed.

Yes,but as you see,there're no argues about the place where the battle was taken,all of the argues are about the quick initial defeats of the Genoese which happened in history(And the scenario designer knows that)did not represent correctly in the game.

[fogman]

You all conflate the historical outcome with the game outcome. The solution is "simply" to preserve the historical conditions while modifying the victory conditions, i.e. for the French side to do better than reality (and consider it a victory in terms of the scenario), not actually winning it because It does go against historical immersion when historically lopsided defeats are artificially turned into triumphs. That's how I do it anyway (the whole "you get to change history" is a bit "beer and pretzels" for me, but that's just me).

[SnuggleBunnies]

You all conflate the historical outcome with the game outcome. The solution is "simply" to preserve the historical conditions while modifying the victory conditions, i.e. for the French side to do better than reality (and consider it a victory in terms of the scenario), not actually winning it because It does go against historical immersion when historically lopsided defeats are artificially turned into triumphs. That's how I do it anyway (the whole "you get to change history" is a bit "beer and pretzels" for me, but that's just me).

I know this was the approach taken in balancing Sengoku Jidai and Pike and Shot scenarios - I wonder if fog switched to more 'universal' win conditions to be friendlier to newer players, or if people actually complained about it? I would agree that that is the most elegant solution to such battles.

[Cronos09]

The rationale for the Crecy scenario as it stands is to make it more playable and interesting by balancing some battle factors. In fact, it does not balance the scenario at all. It merely overbalances it in favor of the French. So instead of "sitting back and watching" the English annihilate the French with their longbows, we now sit back and watch the French wait out the Genoese until English missiles are diminished to Low, and attack. Since the prepared ground (is there prepared ground at all?) and the stakes are basically ineffective protection, the French win even at a Sergeant level of difficulty for the English. So what price playability?

You are not quite right. I won the Crécy scenario at the Duke and Prince difficulty levels for the English side. You need to maneuver the English units from the first turn in order to win it. But you are right the scenario is easier to be won for the French side.
I would give the longbowmen 7 turns of full ammo to slightly balance the chances of the sides.
Dux Limitis, you can do it for your version of the scenario. For this:
1) copy 3StormOfArrows folder from ...\Field of Glory II Medieval\Campaigns\ to ...\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGloryMedieval\CAMPAIGNS\
2) open this copied folder, then TEXT1.TXT file with Notepad. In the first line add v2 so that this line looks like this IDS_CAMPAIGN_NAME,"Storm of Arrows v2", and safe the file. Now you have Storm of Arrows v2 module in your Epic Battles menu.
3) download Crecy_E.BSF file https://disk.yandex.by/d/hczury_N2vcn8A and put it at ...\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGloryMedieval\CAMPAIGNS\3StormOfArrows\SCENARIOS\ with replacement.
4) in this file there is the script block responsible for longbowmen ammo

Code: Select all

	if (GetTurn() == 0) // Increase English longBowmen full ammunition 
    {    
			for (i = 0; i < GetUnitCount(0); i++)
			{
				id = GetUnitID(0,i);
				if (id != -1)
					{					
						if (GetAttrib(id, "Longbow") == 100)
			                { 
			                   SetAttrib(id, "TotalShots", -4); 
			                } 				
					}
			}     
		               
    }

In the line SetAttrib(id, "TotalShots", -4); you can change the number -4 (7 full ammo turns), -6 (8 full ammo turns), -8 (9 full ammo turns), -10 (10 full ammo turns) etc as you like and safe it.
Thanks to Paul for the interesting scenario!

[Dux Limitis]

You all conflate the historical outcome with the game outcome. The solution is "simply" to preserve the historical conditions while modifying the victory conditions, i.e. for the French side to do better than reality (and consider it a victory in terms of the scenario), not actually winning it because It does go against historical immersion when historically lopsided defeats are artificially turned into triumphs. That's how I do it anyway (the whole "you get to change history" is a bit "beer and pretzels" for me, but that's just me).

Yes,like the Adrianople scenario in the FoG 2(From a different designer),I think the Crécy could simply preserve those historical conditions while modified the victory conditions(Like the France will win at the end of the scenario if the routed army is less than 60%),but the designer seems very determined and pretty satisfied with his design of this scenario(Especially this is a well known battle),so I think our discussions here are meaningless,really damn shame about this.

If the game walked on the path away from the historical accuracy and artificially switched some historical conditions to be friendlier to newer players or gamers,I may reconsider to buy their products continue or not in the future.

[Athos1660]

^Cronos09 should be thanked for provided options/solutions !!!!

[fogman]

Yes,like the Adrianople scenario in the FoG 2(From a different designer),I think the Crécy could simply preserve those historical conditions while modified the victory conditions(Like the France will win at the end of the scenario if the routed army is less than 60%),but the designer seems very determined and pretty satisfied with his design of this scenario(Especially this is a well known battle),so I think our discussions here are meaningless,really damn shame about this.

If the game walked on the path away from the historical accuracy and artificially switched some historical conditions to be friendlier to newer players or gamers,I may reconsider to buy their products continue or not in the future.

Well I don't think the "epic battles" are make or break. It follows that they can take a different approach and go a bit more grognard and showcase the system as a good engine for simulation too.

Now, shameless plug, if you have FoG 1, I have been writing plenty of scenarios as pedagogical studies of ancient and medieval battles: www.militaryhistorywithfog.com
They are very precise in their depiction of the dynamics of the battles studied but you may have to wait a while until I get to Crecy...

[Dux Limitis]

Yes,like the Adrianople scenario in the FoG 2(From a different designer),I think the Crécy could simply preserve those historical conditions while modified the victory conditions(Like the France will win at the end of the scenario if the routed army is less than 60%),but the designer seems very determined and pretty satisfied with his design of this scenario(Especially this is a well known battle),so I think our discussions here are meaningless,really damn shame about this.

If the game walked on the path away from the historical accuracy and artificially switched some historical conditions to be friendlier to newer players or gamers,I may reconsider to buy their products continue or not in the future.

Well I don't think the "epic battles" are make or break. It follows that they can take a different approach and go a bit more grognard and showcase the system as a good engine for simulation too.

Question is,they didn't take the system and engine for simulations in some epic battles.Instead,they considered to design the scenarios more competitive or more "balance" for the both sides,historical accuracy seems to be the second place.

[fogman]

it was a suggestion, not an observation.

[Dux Limitis]

it was a suggestion, not an observation.

Just afraid,if it goes straight on this way,perhaps one day it'll become something like the Total War,or worse.

At least this thing(And how the official decided to keep it untouched)successfully makes me think twice before to buy their future DLCs.

[Cronos09]

As an option to simulate historical accordance, I can add as a mod of the original scenario the automatic rout of the Genoese units that are on the path of mounted knights (within the angle of less than 45 degr of the adjacent tile) like this
End of AI previous turn

Start of AI next turn

In this case I think we need to change the VC for the English side (eg. 50% and 70%) or reduce the percentage of French losses from the rout of the Genoese.

[Dux Limitis]

As an option to simulate historical accordance, I can add as a mod of the original scenario the automatic rout of the Genoese units that are on the path of mounted knights (within the angle of less than 45 degr of the adjacent tile) like this
End of AI previous turn

Start of AI next turn

In this case I think we need to change the VC for the English side (eg. 50% and 70%) or reduce the percentage of French losses from the rout of the Genoese.

Thanks so much for this,that seems the only way to solve this unfortunate situation.

[gribol]

Thanks so much for this,that seems the only way to solve this unfortunate situation.

Yeah, sure, just try to win as French now ...

[Cronos09]

Thanks so much for this,that seems the only way to solve this unfortunate situation.

Yeah, sure, just try to win as French now ...

Comrade, if you do not put French heavy cavalry behind the Genoese within one tile, then nothing bad will happen
Modded version of Crécy for the English side (available upon request)
Unzip it at ...\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGloryMedieval\CAMPAIGNS\. After this you will see Battle of Crécy v2 in Epic battles menu.
Changes:
1) the Genoese automatically rout at the start of the AI turn if at the end of the previous turn they are in front of heavy cavalry within an angle of 88 (0 - 44) degrees and one tile from it. At this I disabled passing the CT of neighboring units;
2) the VC for the English are 45% and 60% of routed French troops;
3) 7 turns of full ammo for the English longbowmen.

[Dux Limitis]

Thanks so much for this,that seems the only way to solve this unfortunate situation.

Yeah, sure, just try to win as French now ...

Comrade, if you do not put French heavy cavalry behind the Genoese within one tile, then nothing bad will happen
Modded version of Crécy for the English side https://disk.yandex.by/d/KhqnSUBKloqOnQ
Unzip it at ...\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGloryMedieval\CAMPAIGNS\. After this you will see Battle of Crécy v2 in Epic battles menu.
Changes:
1) the Genoese automatically rout at the start of the AI turn if at the end of the previous turn they are in front of heavy cavalry within an angle of 88 (0 - 44) degrees and one tile from it. At this I disabled passing the CT of neighboring units;
2) the VC for the English are 45% and 60% of routed French troops;
3) 7 turns of full ammo for the English longbowmen.

Download instantly,thanks again for this.This should be the official from my perspective.

[Cronos09]

Download instantly,thanks again for this.This should be the official from my perspective.

You play first, then write your opinion, please
If you cannot download from Yandex, here is Google Drive link: see my next post.
Download all Crecy_v2_Eng folder and paste it at ...\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGloryMedieval\CAMPAIGNS\. After this you will see Battle of Crécy v2 in Epic battles menu.

[Dux Limitis]

Download instantly,thanks again for this.This should be the official from my perspective.

You play first, then write your opinion, please
If you cannot download from Yandex, here is Google Drive link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Download all Crecy_v2_Eng folder and paste it at ...\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGloryMedieval\CAMPAIGNS\. After this you will see Battle of Crécy v2 in Epic battles menu.

I've played it in the yesterday and I can say it's way more better than the official Crécy scenario.I just don't understand why the scenario designer can't do like this,I mean,simply preserve the historical conditions while modified the victory conditions instead of artificially switched some historical conditions to make it "balanced",I hope the designer could bear that in mind in the future.Thanks again for your wonderful work,may the God laid his eyes on you.