Commander - Europe at War Announced

[malthaussen]

It'll be too simple and abstract for my tastes. I'd druther see something along the lines of SPI's War in Europe, but with more detailed naval, air. logistics, and production rules.

Still, if a computer game can finally approximate Third Reich, a lot of long-time wargamers will be happy. Should be an excellent beer-and-pretzels game. Or beer-and-bangers, if you live in Britain.

-- Mal

[pompousdivinus]

It'll be too simple and abstract for my tastes. I'd druther see something along the lines of SPI's War in Europe, but with more detailed naval, air. logistics, and production rules.

Still, if a computer game can finally approximate Third Reich, a lot of long-time wargamers will be happy. Should be an excellent beer-and-pretzels game. Or beer-and-bangers, if you live in Britain.

-- Mal

With regards to the map scale it fortunately looks rather like SPI's War in Europe than AH's Third Reich (I still remember the very interesting Poland campaign or my rather fruitless attempts to outmanouvre Monty in Africa in the AH game )

IMHO the cruical thing & benchmark is the AI, especially when it comes to preparing an attack on France or the SU or amphibious assaults. So far the WWII games I played can't cope with DDay(s) in a 1939-45 campaign game (in the scenarios of course the troops are already deployed at their landing zones or on ships to be deployed at certain hexes).

But I admit, probably it is a bit too much to ask for (I wouldn't have a clue so far on what parameters have an Allied or German AI to decide the "where" and "when"of an Invasion) and might spoil the developers enthusiam right from the beginning....

Btw, any idea which strategy game clubs to join when living in Britain ?

[Redpossum]

Looking at the southern edge of the map, just west of the Nile delta, in the area of the Qattara depression there, what's that little rust-red bit?

Ian, I hope I'm not being annoying in my persistence here, but?? I'm dying to know

[IainMcNeil]

It is the Qattara depression

For game clubs in the UK go to the www.bhgs.co.uk. It's mostly wargames clubs but they all tend to have a mix of tabletop & board gamers.

[SMK-at-work]

It'll be too simple and abstract for my tastes.

and you know this because?????

I'd druther see something along the lines of SPI's War in Europe, but with more detailed naval, air. logistics, and production rules.

You'd rather see this than what?

Slitherine staff's replies to discussion on here indicates this game will have considerably more depth than say SC2. Just how much is still up for grabs - or do you have inside info yo're not sharing

[ancient]

Still, if a computer game can finally approximate Third Reich, a lot of long-time wargamers will be happy.

I won't be happy, because Third Reich was crap.

[Redpossum]

Ahh, that's an overly harsh statement of the situation.

Certainly it is now dated, but... judged by reasonable criteria, it was a good game.

Reasonable criteria means in comparison to its contemporary competition, in relation to the state of the gaming art at the time, making allowances for the limitations of boardgames in the pre-computer-revolution world, etc.

[ancient]

Ahh, that's an overly harsh statement of the situation.

Certainly it is now dated, but... judged by reasonable criteria, it was a good game.

Reasonable criteria means in comparison to its contemporary competition, in relation to the state of the gaming art at the time, making allowances for the limitations of boardgames in the pre-computer-revolution world, etc.

It doesn't matter if there was a time when better alternatives were not available. People in this thread have expressed their desire that Europe at War should be similar to Third Reich, so of course I'm going to judge that by modern standards.

[joe98]

You begin with Third Reich ("3R") as a base, then take advantage of computing power to make wargaming better!

3R in its day was a terrific game!

No strategic game has come anywhere near it.

Reading the developers coments here, I get the impression they are making a children's game instead of a wargame. A great shame.

[ancient]

You begin with Third Reich ("3R") as a base, then take advantage of computing power to make wargaming better!

3R in its day was a terrific game!

No strategic game has come anywhere near it.

Reading the developers coments here, I get the impression they are making a children's game instead of a wargame. A great shame.

With all due respect, that's nonsense.

[IainMcNeil]

Ah we're back to the old what is a wargame debate

I am a wargamer and have been for 27 years. I've played board games, card games, computer games, but mostly miniatures tabletop wargames. I've played in competitions around the world.

In my opinion Commander - Europe at War is most definitely a wargame. You'll have to decide for yourself if you agree when its available!

[fabulousforrest]

iainmcneil,

perhaps you can help me understand something in your initial post. you state

Unit Scale: Corps

and then you say

?· 12 different unit types including Light Tanks, Heavy Tanks, Destroyers and Motorised Corps, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

i can claim only limited expertise, but i know of no "corps" consisting entirely of Heavy Tanks. The Royal Tank Corps (later the Royal Tank Regiment) did not operate as a single unit any more than did the Royal Corps of Artillery.

these two statements seem to be at odds. in this game would 21Pz be an uncommandable entity within a "corps," a unit that could be commanded, or be an unidentifiable part of a "corps?"

thanks

[IainMcNeil]

One of the ideas we were feeling out was whether there was any room for 2 types of armoured units. The response seems to be that this is unrealistic so will probably be dropped to one. Instead we may be introducing a couple of new units - air defence and artillery which can support infantry & armouered corps.

[fabulousforrest]

ok, let me ask the question a different way. how many units in this game would be required to represent the D-Day invasion? four?

[IainMcNeil]

I'm not sure what you mean? At teh scale we're dealing with it was really only infantry that was thrown at the beach. Ok some DD tanks and various special fortification busters, but only in support. Mechanised troops dont float well

[fabulousforrest]

Mechanised troops dont float well

as some of them found out...

actually, your uncertaintly is precisely the gist of my question. essentially, you have six infantry divisions (US 4 [of VII corps], US 1 followed by US 29 [of V corps], BR 50 [of XXX corps], CN 3 and BR 3 [of I corps]) hitting the beaches on D-Day, plus the paratroop drops. so, is the invasion represented by the four corps of which the six divisions are elements or is this too granular for representation in your game?

i am trying to get a feel for what the scale really is. that is why in my original question i was trying to see if 21Pz is a visible entity in the scale of the game. what does a "corps" really mean in this game, especially with the unit types you have identified?

or the other possibility, D-Day is too small to be simulated in the game?

i guess i am being more dense than i usually am.

[joe98]

We spectators are trying to get a feel for the scale of the game.

On D-Day, aoorix how many counters will it take to represent the Canadian forces that landed on the first day?


-

[IainMcNeil]

There are approx 2 hexes for the entire beach & cherbourg area, so at most 2 counters for the combined invasion force.

[Redpossum]

There are approx 2 hexes for the entire beach & cherbourg area, so at most 2 counters for the combined invasion force.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

All in all, I like what I'm hearing here. I know some others have expressed various misgivings, but everything sounds good to me so far

And I'm always up for another hex-based WW2 Grand Strategy game!

[fabulousforrest]

There are approx 2 hexes for the entire beach & cherbourg area, so at most 2 counters for the combined invasion force.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

reasonable, perhaps, but not what i am looking for. thanks for the responses.