Suggestions for revision of Russian army lists

[rbodleyscott]

we know that Nevsky was on the defensive and even hid his cavalry, so he was afraid of the knights ' attack on it.

OK, this might have been purely down to relative numbers, but it doesn't exacly support the (revisionist) idea that they should be classed the same as knights.

[AlanGord]

Hi rbodleyscott! In continuation of our steam discussion i want ta add a few cents about russian army list. As i said before I think that recent lists represent the russian force pretty well, but a late one (1155-1264) needs an addition of an elite heavy cavalry unit (like knights in western armies). David Nicolle in his book "Armies of medieval Russia 750 - 1250" writes about Rus cavalry: "During the 12 century the horsemen were divided into two types: horse arhers and close combat lance armed troopers. The majority of horse archers were probably an auxiliares of steppe origin while most close combat horsemen were from Druzhinas which fought in disciplined units like Byzantines or Western European knights" and he also adds that "elite Druzhina cavalry were equipped with bows". I can add to this that Druzhina itself consisted of two parts: "old" (the most wealthy vassals of the russian prince which have the best armour and weapons) and "young" (lesser feodals and sons of the wealthy nobles). Druzhina cavalry could deliver a blow to a western type knight cavalry as seen in the Battle of Wesenberg in 1268. Russian chronicles (Tale of Prince Dovmont, Novgorod chronicle) describes how prince Dovmont's regiment charges german knights and brokes them wounding Master Otto von Lutterberg during the fight. You can read about this battle in a Medieval Warfare Magazine IV.1 (Article by Thomas Williams "The Battle of Wesenberg: Alexander's legacy and an ascendant Russian State"). Livonian Chronicle describes this battle in a different way and doesn't mention this glorious attack, but both sources agree that russian warriors fought on par with their western "colleagues". Both chronicles also agree that russians had a hard time fightinhg kinight's wedge ("iron pig" as it was called by them) and it wasn't a common tactics in the lands of Rus .

Assuming all of these I think that the late russian army list can benefit from addition of a unit similar to the best equipped cavalry from the mongolian roster. They should be few (3 or 4 i think) and will represent on the battlefield the "old" druazhina of russian prince or bodyguads of wealthy boyars. These unit will fill the role of the "german mercenaries" but in a more historical way and it won't ruin the distinct feel of the army list.

[Paul59]

The Russians of the 13th century almost did not fight with the knights. The battle of Lake Peipus is one of the few exceptions. Some scholars dispute its size, saying it was more of a minor border skirmish. But we know that Nevsky was on the defensive and even hid his cavalry, so he was afraid of the knights ' attack on it. We also know that he had less cavalry than the enemy. We also know that he had light cavalry from the Russians, not from mercenaries. This light cavalry was used in reconnaissance, it was called "watchmen", I do not know what English word is suitable here.

Strange, all the sources that I found on the battle of Lake Peipus disagree on those points, saying that Nevsky's had Russian cavalry at least equal to the number of knights, and that the Russian light horse archers were Turko/Mongol in origin.

[rbodleyscott]

Assuming all of these I think that the late russian army list can benefit from addition of a unit similar to the best equipped cavalry from the mongolian roster. They should be few (3 or 4 i think) and will represent on the battlefield the "old" druazhina of russian prince or bodyguads of wealthy boyars. These unit will fill the role of the "german mercenaries" but in a more historical way and it won't ruin the distinct feel of the army list.

This is exactly how we plan to represent the post-1264 (Post-Mongol) Russian army, with the best units as "best-equipped cavalry" and the others as Armoured Horse Archers.

[Krevan]

Yes, that suggests skirmishing tactics rather than knights. The majority of Hungarian and Polovsty cavalry were light horse archers. The Polovtsy certainly had no knights. That statement is in favour of the current classification, not changing the cavalry to knights.

Does this mean that Russian light riders need to add bows?

Not necessarily. They may have skirmished with their lances, which we know could be thrown.

Obviously you have not yet seen to later Russian army lists, but in their current form we assume that the bulk of the Russian cavalry switched to the bow after the Mongol conquest, some also using lances.

Yes, they switched to the Eastern methods of horse fighting. But will the Russian cavalry before the Mongol period be more diverse in the game?

[Krevan]

Hi rbodleyscott! In continuation of our steam discussion i want ta add a few cents about russian army list. As i said before I think that recent lists represent the russian force pretty well, but a late one (1155-1264) needs an addition of an elite heavy cavalry unit (like knights in western armies). David Nicolle in his book "Armies of medieval Russia 750 - 1250" writes about Rus cavalry: "During the 12 century the horsemen were divided into two types: horse arhers and close combat lance armed troopers. The majority of horse archers were probably an auxiliares of steppe origin while most close combat horsemen were from Druzhinas which fought in disciplined units like Byzantines or Western European knights" and he also adds that "elite Druzhina cavalry were equipped with bows". I can add to this that Druzhina itself consisted of two parts: "old" (the most wealthy vassals of the russian prince which have the best armour and weapons) and "young" (lesser feodals and sons of the wealthy nobles). Druzhina cavalry could deliver a blow to a western type knight cavalry as seen in the Battle of Wesenberg in 1268. Russian chronicles (Tale of Prince Dovmont, Novgorod chronicle) describes how prince Dovmont's regiment charges german knights and brokes them wounding Master Otto von Lutterberg during the fight. You can read about this battle in a Medieval Warfare Magazine IV.1 (Article by Thomas Williams "The Battle of Wesenberg: Alexander's legacy and an ascendant Russian State"). Livonian Chronicle describes this battle in a different way and doesn't mention this glorious attack, but both sources agree that russian warriors fought on par with their western "colleagues". Both chronicles also agree that russians had a hard time fightinhg kinight's wedge ("iron pig" as it was called by them) and it wasn't a common tactics in the lands of Rus .

Assuming all of these I think that the late russian army list can benefit from addition of a unit similar to the best equipped cavalry from the mongolian roster. They should be few (3 or 4 i think) and will represent on the battlefield the "old" druazhina of russian prince or bodyguads of wealthy boyars. These unit will fill the role of the "german mercenaries" but in a more historical way and it won't ruin the distinct feel of the army list.

Great idea! I support you! Such elite horsemen should be in small numbers.

[Krevan]

The Russians of the 13th century almost did not fight with the knights. The battle of Lake Peipus is one of the few exceptions. Some scholars dispute its size, saying it was more of a minor border skirmish. But we know that Nevsky was on the defensive and even hid his cavalry, so he was afraid of the knights ' attack on it. We also know that he had less cavalry than the enemy. We also know that he had light cavalry from the Russians, not from mercenaries. This light cavalry was used in reconnaissance, it was called "watchmen", I do not know what English word is suitable here.

Strange, all the sources that I found on the battle of Lake Peipus disagree on those points, saying that Nevsky's had Russian cavalry at least equal to the number of knights, and that the Russian light horse archers were Turko/Mongol in origin.

This is a feature of history as a science) you never know for sure) according to my sources, the Russian cavalry was no less heavy than the knight's, but such cavalry was not enough. Nevsky in the Battle of Lake Peipus had almost twice the numerical advantage, but at the same time adhered to a defensive strategy. The basis of his troops is the Novgorod militia and foot archers.

[toska]

It would be fine to replace the German knights with an equivalent unit of Russian knights. The role of German mercenaries on Russian lists seems to me disproportionate. Really the elite nucleus of the princely armies were western knights? the truth is that I do not know but I doubt that Russia was too interested for Western knights to go there too much. Europe and the Mediterranean were tastier destinations for these men.

[Krevan]

It would be fine to replace the German knights with an equivalent unit of Russian knights. The role of German mercenaries on Russian lists seems to me disproportionate. Really the elite nucleus of the princely armies were western knights? the truth is that I do not know but I doubt that Russia was too interested for Western knights to go there too much. Europe and the Mediterranean were tastier destinations for these men.

I haven't heard of it either. Only about the Scandinavian, Hungarian and Polovtsian mercenaries heard.

[Paul59]

Another consideration is that I doubt very much that the budget would stretch to a new model, or even a reskin, for a new Russian knights model. So if they are "added", it would just be the existing knights models being added to the lists, and they are already there anyway!

[toska]

If you decide to make that change, I think a reskin of the 11th century western knight model could work for the entire period of the current game.

[Nosy_Rat]

Hello. Let's start with the cavalry. I can prove that in Russia of the 13th century there were two types of mounted warriors-heavy cavalry for ramming blows (like knights), and light cavalry (imitated the steppe peoples with whom Russia fought and contacted for centuries).
Evidence: W. Воeheim. Handbuch der Waffenkunde. Leipzig, 1890, p. 197, 198. - "The spread of ramming with a spear caused in the chivalric West in the XII century the appearance of saddles with a deep seat and a chair-shaped curved front and back". http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/1.1613131421.png
Miniature of a horse from the 13th century. From the book of the famous Russian archaeologist and medievalist A. N. Kirpichnikov.
"The existence of a chair—like structure in Russia is also confirmed by the stirrups with a flat, wide footrest and spurs of the pan - European types of the XII-XIII centuries," writes Kirpichnikov.
The contemporary Medieval historian K. Zhukov also says this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0PYTHLXAlk&t=988s - We include English subtitles. (Minute 14.12, 15.10, 15.27).
Judging by the report of the Galician-Volyn chronicle that the horses of the soldiers of Daniel of Galicia in the late 1240s were "masked and leather koyareh", horse armor was then available to the Russians.
The creators of the film about Alexander Nevsky knew about this. As you can see in the picture, they dressed Alexander's horse in an armor made of quilted fabric on cotton wool, which absorbs blows.
http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/mif_ill_2.1613132453.jpg
I think all this proves the presence in Russia of heavy, armored horsemen who used ramming knight tactics.
Could you add such units? At least in small quantities

So I watched Zhukov's video and I think what he says there is that equipment of Russian druzhina cavalry was equal to that of western knights (I guess it somewahat stays true in-game as both early knigths and Russian cavalry are superior/armoured and representations of their armament is more question of tactics than of actual weapons employed). The only part where he mentions tactics is highly speculative - son of Chingiz Khan, who was supposed to stay back during the fight was killed by Russian cavalry charge - so that somehow means that charge was especially powerful.

I guess there can be a point made about representing Russian cavalry as "light" lancers - as they were obviously effective against non-mongol steppe horse archers, but it would make them weaker to western knigths (probaly a most popular faction in MP at least?).

Perhaps they can be made to switch between light spear/lancers via the "dismount" mechanics if anything?

[Krevan]

So I watched Zhukov's video and I think what he says there is that equipment of Russian druzhina cavalry was equal to that of western knights (I guess it somewahat stays true in-game as both early knigths and Russian cavalry are superior/armoured and representations of their armament is more question of tactics than of actual weapons employed). The only part where he mentions tactics is highly speculative - son of Chingiz Khan, who was supposed to stay back during the fight was killed by Russian cavalry charge - so that somehow means that charge was especially powerful.

I guess there can be a point made about representing Russian cavalry as "light" lancers - as they were obviously effective against non-mongol steppe horse archers, but it would make them weaker to western knigths (probaly a most popular faction in MP at least?).

Perhaps they can be made to switch between light spear/lancers via the "dismount" mechanics if anything?

Maybe so. I would divide all the cavalry of Russia into two types-1) Heavy cavalry of the Prince (duke). The bodyguards of the Russian princes - they are very few, but they are not inferior to the knights. 2) Cavalry "lancers" - as you described them, they can switch to throwing spears or attack with long spears.

[Winterbourne]

I can add to this that Druzhina itself consisted of two parts: "old" (the most wealthy vassals of the russian prince which have the best armour and weapons) and "young" (lesser feodals and sons of the wealthy nobles).

In fact, they were called the "senior" (старшая) druzhina and the "junior" (младшая) druzhina. And yes, the senior druzhina consisted of most wealthy and best-equipped vassals of the prince. There are scans from the russian book "Ice battle": http://www.varvar.ru/arhiv/slovo/ledovo ... stche.html.
Look at the figure No 3 of the picture. He is described as "heavily armored lancer, senior druzhina, the first line of battle formation"
I also think that some Russian cavalry units were armed and fought as western knights. Maybe small part of the force but still they were. My proposal is to rename "Knight and sergeants" from the Russian list to "senior druzhina" and rest of the armored cavalry to "junior druzhina". Probably models for senior druzhina should be replaced too.

[rbodleyscott]

Number 3 is carrying a pavise, which suggests that he is in fact from a much later period than the Battle on the Ice.

We have always planned to have Best-Equipped cavalry armed with lance and bow like that in the post-1264 Rus lists.

[Winterbourne]

Above-mentioned Denison Taylor speaks in his "History of the cavalry" about Russian cavalry of 11th - first half of 13th century: "It was equipped compeletly as Norman [cavalry] with harness, saddles and stirrups, partially with spurs... the main weapon were lances with various flags"

[rbodleyscott]

The issue is not the equipment but the tactics used.

What does no. 5 represent in the illustration?

We are not averse to having the senior druzhina as knights in this period. Unfortunately we currently lack a suitable model, and art time is under great pressure completing the assets for the next dlc, so we would have to use one of the existing models as a stop-gap.

Clearly the later knights look completely wrong.

The possibilities therefore are:
1) Use the early western knights model, but increase the armour rating.
2) Use the current Rus noble cavalry, but re-animate it charging with couched lance, and increase the armour rating.

Either way we would need new textures, to distinguish them.

I think number 2 is probably the preferable option, given the current constraints.

(And I remain completely unconvinced that all of the boyar cavalry should be rated as knights).

[Winterbourne]

I guess the words "main weapon" somewhat relative to tactics.
No 5 is described as "Prussian horseman".
Here are another exаmple from that book. Figure 1 is a prince and figures 2 and 3 are described as senior druzhina lancers too.

[rbodleyscott]

I guess the words "main weapon" somewhat relative to tactics.

Not really. A lance can be used couched like a Western knight, or it can be sometimes thrown, sometimes thrust, which is what the "Light Spear" capability represents.

[rbodleyscott]

A third possibility for a stop-gap model for the senior Druzhina would be Byzantine kite-shield lancer models.