Penetration/Armor role in classic PzC

[cw58]

Some excellent ideas there, captainjack.

[lennis29]

Changes I made that made AT in general a lot more attractive without breaking game balance were +2 initiative across the board, and adding a switch to overwatch mode.
The ini increase was because even experienced heavy AT was firing second when defending, which seemed counter to pretty much every theory and personal report I'd read.
The overwatch mode is a switch to artillery type while retaining the AT unit combat stats but with move 1 and ROF 80%. So the AT unit now sits next to or behind the front line watching for (armoured) trouble and firing in support. Suddenly Marders and Nashorn become useful, especially against medium tanks, even though you lose the +2HA/" experience bonus. They are also useful for softening up bunkers and for removing entrenchment, which is reasonably historical.
Early use is encouraged by giving 37mm pak and the French 25mm 2 move as they were very mobile compared with other AT guns (very annoying when you forget and get jumped by onr) and allowing portees to switch to dismounted AT but with slightly boosted defence stats (based on reports of NZ AT units in the desert where they dismounted and dug in where possible, but fought mounted where circumstances and ground were against them).
In a perfect world, I'd want to see towed AT entreching as fast as infantry, since entrenchment rates are hard coded, +1 or +1.5 def/" would be a good second. When
I've tried adapting the experience table, I unfortunately ended up with 0/* experience bonus for some reason so tried alternative options.
And finally (it was going to be a short post...). I added SE AT units for germany - currently exluding the stugs which were already useful. I might give US SE AT units next time I play.

thanks for your interesting ideas, can you please share your file (Equipment) to study and analyze your ideas.

[lennis29]

Well, I try to give some more common and popular units a long time to use, so when the time comes to be obsolete, I give myself the opportunity to upgrade to other units, using the vehicle's chassis.
as the examples shown in the picture.
- I make a new unit (Primary and no return) when making the change, it changes to the new assigned class.

[captainjack]

Lennis29
Thanks for the comments. I'll pm the equipment file later today when I'm next at my computer

[lennis29]

Lennis29
Thanks for the comments. I'll pm the equipment file later today when I'm next at my computer

Excellent, thank you very much.
I will be waiting for your contribution.

[guille1434]

Changes I made that made AT in general a lot more attractive without breaking game balance were +2 initiative across the board, and adding a switch to overwatch mode.
The ini increase was because even experienced heavy AT was firing second when defending, which seemed counter to pretty much every theory and personal report I'd read.
The overwatch mode is a switch to artillery type while retaining the AT unit combat stats but with move 1 and ROF 80%. So the AT unit now sits next to or behind the front line watching for (armoured) trouble and firing in support. Suddenly Marders and Nashorn become useful, especially against medium tanks, even though you lose the +2HA/" experience bonus. They are also useful for softening up bunkers and for removing entrenchment, which is reasonably historical.
Early use is encouraged by giving 37mm pak and the French 25mm 2 move as they were very mobile compared with other AT guns (very annoying when you forget and get jumped by onr) and allowing portees to switch to dismounted AT but with slightly boosted defence stats (based on reports of NZ AT units in the desert where they dismounted and dug in where possible, but fought mounted where circumstances and ground were against them).
In a perfect world, I'd want to see towed AT entreching as fast as infantry, since entrenchment rates are hard coded, +1 or +1.5 def/" would be a good second. When
I've tried adapting the experience table, I unfortunately ended up with 0/* experience bonus for some reason so tried alternative options.
And finally (it was going to be a short post...). I added SE AT units for germany - currently exluding the stugs which were already useful. I might give US SE AT units next time I play.

Hello Captainjack, I agree with cw58.... Those are very interesting ideas. About them, I would like to ask you some questions...

1 - Do you give range = 1 to AT units when switched to "overwatch mode" (I think so).
2 - Also, I suppose you give then a Soft Attack value equal to 0 (to make the unit to provide support fire only when armored enemy units make an attack). Is this correct?

As I aready gave self-propelled AT units an ""ambush" switch (with move =1, higher initiative, and better defense) I am thinking to add this useful switch also, making those kind of units triple switch units... but only to long range, big caliber armed vehicles (75 mm guns and up), because I think that lesser caliber gunned vehicles (37, 47, 50 mm) lack enough punch at long range to be able to function in such way.

The same goes, in my opinion, for towed guns. I would give the "overwatch" switch only to guns of 75 mm caliber and higher.
By the way, I already am experimenting with a third switch for lighter towed AT units (units with a max weight of about 500/600 kg):
1) The "normal", vanilla switch,
2) A "move" switch with movement=2 but with just passive and reduced attack values (they will fire only in self defense). I always disliked the idea of artillery men pushing their guns while chasing and firing on motorized vehicles... This would just function as a deployment mode.
3) The already described "ambush mode", like the Sp AT with better initiative and defense values, plus the addition of the camo trait, because the small size of light towed AT Guns mke the easy to conceal from enemy observation.

Thanks!

[nono hard et heavy]

Changes I made that made AT in general a lot more attractive without breaking game balance were +2 initiative across the board, and adding a switch to overwatch mode.
The ini increase was because even experienced heavy AT was firing second when defending, which seemed counter to pretty much every theory and personal report I'd read.
The overwatch mode is a switch to artillery type while retaining the AT unit combat stats but with move 1 and ROF 80%. So the AT unit now sits next to or behind the front line watching for (armoured) trouble and firing in support. Suddenly Marders and Nashorn become useful, especially against medium tanks, even though you lose the +2HA/" experience bonus. They are also useful for softening up bunkers and for removing entrenchment, which is reasonably historical.
Early use is encouraged by giving 37mm pak and the French 25mm 2 move as they were very mobile compared with other AT guns (very annoying when you forget and get jumped by onr) and allowing portees to switch to dismounted AT but with slightly boosted defence stats (based on reports of NZ AT units in the desert where they dismounted and dug in where possible, but fought mounted where circumstances and ground were against them).
In a perfect world, I'd want to see towed AT entreching as fast as infantry, since entrenchment rates are hard coded, +1 or +1.5 def/" would be a good second. When
I've tried adapting the experience table, I unfortunately ended up with 0/* experience bonus for some reason so tried alternative options.
And finally (it was going to be a short post...). I added SE AT units for germany - currently exluding the stugs which were already useful. I might give US SE AT units next time I play.

Hello Captainjack, I agree with cw58.... Those are very interesting ideas. About them, I would like to ask you some questions...

1 - Do you give range = 1 to AT units when switched to "overwatch mode" (I think so).
2 - Also, I suppose you give then a Soft Attack value equal to 0 (to make the unit to provide support fire only when armored enemy units make an attack). Is this correct?

As I aready gave self-propelled AT units an ""ambush" switch (with move =1, higher initiative, and better defense) I am thinking to add this useful switch also, making those kind of units triple switch units... but only to long range, big caliber armed vehicles (75 mm guns and up), because I think that lesser caliber gunned vehicles (37, 47, 50 mm) lack enough punch at long range to be able to function in such way.

The same goes, in my opinion, for towed guns. I would give the "overwatch" switch only to guns of 75 mm caliber and higher.
By the way, I already am experimenting with a third switch for lighter towed AT units (units with a max weight of about 500/600 kg):
1) The "normal", vanilla switch,
2) A "move" switch with movement=2 but with just passive and reduced attack values (they will fire only in self defense). I always disliked the idea of artillery men pushing their guns while chasing and firing on motorized vehicles... This would just function as a deployment mode.
3) The already described "ambush mode", like the Sp AT with better initiative and defense values, plus the addition of the camo trait, because the small size of light towed AT Guns mke the easy to conceal from enemy observation.

Thanks!

Hello Guille.
I remember an old game: Combat Mission (Barbarossa to Berlin). It was fun to be able to buy a Hetzer or a JPz-IV 70 because they were low, so hard to detect. What I reproach in Panzer Corps is that you have a JagdPanther or a hetzer, apart from the normal values, it's the same. But for camouflage try to camouflage a JagdPanther and a Hetzer and you'll see the problem *laughs*.
Have a nice day.
Bruno

[McGuba]

The problem with the "camo" trait in the game is that units with this trait remain "invisible" even if they are being transported by a train or a sea transport. So the camo trait turns the train and the ship invisible as well which is not very good. In my mod I gave camo trait to the towed AT guns but they are invisble all the time because of this and can only be seen if there is an enemy ground unit next to them.

Thus I decided that in the next version they will be multipurpose units and only have the camo trait when they are in the towed AT form and then they can only move 1 hex and cannot embark ships or trains. For faster movenent they have to be switched to their second mode which is a an unarmed truck and then this truck can embark trains and ships and it does not have the camo trait. However, the issue with multipurpose units is that the AI does not always use them properly but luckily in this case it more or less does.

If they have three modes the AI may not be able to use the switch at all. Then you may end up giving three-way units to only one side - the player side, but then again, if people want to play that scenario in multiplayer mode it is a problem again because one side has this benefit and the other does not which makes in unbalanced.

[guille1434]

Thanks guys for posting your comments...

Nono: I will only experiment to apply the "camo" trait just to towed AT guns of small size and weight (less than 500/600 kg). Of course, a vehicle of the size of a Jagdpanther would hardly deserve to hve the "camo" trait...

McGuba: Yes, I was aware of the problem of the stealth "camo" AT towed gun which gives also the same atribute to its transport unit. So, I thought of a similar solution, to make an additional switch for those units whichs was a "motorized transport" mode switch (I am thinking to make an icon of a Krupp Protze truck towing a gun for the 3,7 cm Pak 35/36).
About the AI problem with switchable units, I think it is a lost cause, becuse of that, I am just making focus on a equipment file designed for players taking the German faction, thus limiting the modding and introduction of "fancy" triple and multi-switch units just to the units used by the player (german and Axis nations), and limiting the modifications to Allied side units just to statistics values adjustement and adding some new units but with no experimental devices like multi-switches, etc...

[Yrfin]

Glad to see in this Post experts like Guille, captainjack, McGuba and many more

Many ideas about AT "ambush" stance here.
In My vision AT :
- It Must have a "Ambush Mode". 8.8 can be set in "Ambush Mode" (Brits and Frenchs just cant believe in it Hello nono )
- captureflag trait for AT.
- 1 Range (?).

AT 3.7-8.8 cm towed.jpg (140.88 KiB) Viewed 2185 times

Also I use "camo" icon (Guille Design) for AT in "Ambush" Mode:

0_at_Ambush.png (12.51 KiB) Viewed 2183 times

So 3.7 cm PaK looks like:

ger_at_3.7cm_Pak36_ambush.png (20.33 KiB) Viewed 2176 times

[lennis29]

I think we should all get together and put all the ideas into practice in a Vanilla file that will serve as a basis for future mods.

[lennis29]

We are going to modify a file, together, something similar to what Deducter did.

[Yrfin]

We are going to modify a file, together, something similar to what Deducter did.

Agreed.
But like a McGuba said: "Every player have your own Equipment file..."

[lennis29]

We are going to modify a file, together, something similar to what Deducter did.

Agreed.
But like a McGuba said: "Every player have your own Equipment file..."

is the idea, dialogue to reach an agreement and create a final file as real as possible.
to play in difficult and very difficult.

[captainjack]

lennis29 I've emailed a recent version of my equipment file (as I couldn't work out how to attach the file in a general reply.

I've used Range 1 for all overwatch mode AT.
I was originally going to apply overwatch only for heavier AT guns, but I realised that to make the towed and lightly armoured AT guns useful they should be able to provide supporting fire for neighbouring units. Also AT guns were used for general fire support or for bunker busting so being able to artillery type shots seemed reasonable. There might be a case for allowing the heavy guns a true overwatch type role but it got too hard and what I've done seems to work OK.
As for soft attack 0, I'd disagree. AT guns can shoot up trucks and scare off other soft targets (NZ AT reports include use of 2 pounder solid shot to drive off mortar teams). Also many AT guns were issued with a few HE or canister rounds for soft targets, even without allowing for the rifle or MG teams for defence against infantry.

[lennis29]

lennis29 I've emailed a recent version of my equipment file (as I couldn't work out how to attach the file in a general reply.

I've used Range 1 for all overwatch mode AT.
I was originally going to apply overwatch only for heavier AT guns, but I realised that to make the towed and lightly armoured AT guns useful they should be able to provide supporting fire for neighbouring units. Also AT guns were used for general fire support or for bunker busting so being able to artillery type shots seemed reasonable. There might be a case for allowing the heavy guns a true overwatch type role but it got too hard and what I've done seems to work OK.
As for soft attack 0, I'd disagree. AT guns can shoot up trucks and scare off other soft targets (NZ AT reports include use of 2 pounder solid shot to drive off mortar teams). Also many AT guns were issued with a few HE or canister rounds for soft targets, even without allowing for the rifle or MG teams for defence against infantry.

Hey friend, TRY THIS FORM.

[lennis29]

lennis29 I've emailed a recent version of my equipment file (as I couldn't work out how to attach the file in a general reply.

I've used Range 1 for all overwatch mode AT.
I was originally going to apply overwatch only for heavier AT guns, but I realised that to make the towed and lightly armoured AT guns useful they should be able to provide supporting fire for neighbouring units. Also AT guns were used for general fire support or for bunker busting so being able to artillery type shots seemed reasonable. There might be a case for allowing the heavy guns a true overwatch type role but it got too hard and what I've done seems to work OK.
As for soft attack 0, I'd disagree. AT guns can shoot up trucks and scare off other soft targets (NZ AT reports include use of 2 pounder solid shot to drive off mortar teams). Also many AT guns were issued with a few HE or canister rounds for soft targets, even without allowing for the rifle or MG teams for defence against infantry.

hahaha I put 1 Rng on it. to Flak 88. Pak to not receive so much damage in an initial attack, although later it could be attacked, what happened later is that a Hero +1 Rng arrived hahahaha wow, Eliminate tanks from behind and the most fun and good thing is that the 2nd hero was also +1 Rng, at that point I felt that I had damaged the game and that I should edit and remove the 1 Rng.

[captainjack]

Thanks lennis29 for the advice on the file - I was sure it was possible, but couldn't work it out.
I think that SSgtpg had Stugs with range 1, so a range hero was very useful, though also overpowered.
It's not so bad with switchable units as you only get range hero in the version with range >0 (eg 88 in AT mode gets initiative, but if in AA mode gets range, and range hero 88AA doesn't keep the +1range when it switches to AT mode). A 2 range Nashorn is nice but not too destructive.

[lennis29]

Thanks lennis29 for the advice on the file - I was sure it was possible, but couldn't work it out.
I think that SSgtpg had Stugs with range 1, so a range hero was very useful, though also overpowered.
It's not so bad with switchable units as you only get range hero in the version with range >0 (eg 88 in AT mode gets initiative, but if in AA mode gets range, and range hero 88AA doesn't keep the +1range when it switches to AT mode). A 2 range Nashorn is nice but not too destructive.

I already saw your file, you have the complete SE ajaajaj.
Your structure is good because new units and updates are always coming to you, you don't get bored waiting.

[lennis29]

I would like a Mod, totally vanilla, with the information as real as possible.
But this takes a long time and a good team to achieve it.
I have been seeing some comments about panzer corps 2 and it seems that the data is not so accurate, there is discontent, old players prefer Pzc 1.