Hü (Axis) vs Morris (Allies)

[Morris]

Hi Everyone :

It is time again I have to say sth :

1 I was so disappointted that Hue continue this AAR after turn 57 . I do believe that an AAR should be agreed by both sides players . If you really don't think so , It is ok for me , I will AAR all the games who quits against me without notice & I will also declear victory like this !!!

2 by the end of the turn of 63th , USSR is making a rapid & big progress in the southern winter offensive 1942 . How dare you say Axis will surely win ? we will almost liberate Romania & break the southern line in the spring of the 1943 . Although we lost Moscow , if Axis lost the southern front group , who has the advantage in Russia ? !

3 Since Axis build so many Navy units , our Allies strategy is just against Axis by navy to navy fight , even if we lose , it will also blood Axis & burn his oil .

4 you can recogonize from Hue's last screenshot , after the front line in the east , nothing stay in the back . If we destroy the southern line , who will be the back up ? where is the second line ? Will Axis still have 200 pp then ? BTW , regarding to the 3 SS arms , the USSR 's antitank's lvl has already upgraded . even three of my corps will be able to destroy an arm in winter .

5 I have told Mr hue to continue this AAR or not is an issue of respection to eachother ! I do respect him before this moment !
But since he quited this , So do I !!!
This is a game which should play with a friend or a person respect you at least !

6 The only mistake I admitted here is that : I should not agree Mr hue to replay for the Malta's partisan . I promise I will never do it again ! It was all my fault !

7 If anyone who believe Hue will win , I can send you the file of turn 63 & ask the password from Hue & we continue this to the end . The truth will test & prove my points .

Finally , without AAR , all games between players are private. If anyone want to AAR your game ,please ask the permittion of your opponent . Thank you !

Morris

[DanSlayer]

to 2. it must be a joke? how do you want to liberate romania? you are on Romania border first at spring (you need 4-5 turns for it). and than you are avaited by a SS-Pz-Army supported by a lot of german TACs and FTRs. All German forces are still intact. You write, "if Axis lost the southern group" - but Axis didn't lost this! just retreating and railing back...

to 3. ... and how u wanna liberate london and paris till 45? if you lose your navy again?

to 4. I see some units in preparation of counteroffensive on romanian border. and you have no chance to destroy the southern line. after you liberate Kiev, Kursk and Krivoj Rog axis will have still over 270 pp. and the winter is in 4 turns over, till then you wouldn't see no one SS-Pz... so how you wanna destroy them ?

to 7. I would like to play it out Morris! Send me a PM, if you get the PW from Hue. Or I ask Hue for it... But then I would continue the AAR.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The problem for Russia is that it doesn't matter if they make progress in the south in the Summer of 1943 if the Germans rush towards Omsk. Russia would need a lot of units to prevent the Germans from reaching Omsk.

Hü had a pretty easy task here. Form a good perimeter around Moscow so the city won't fall to counter attacks and go all in against Omsk. Germany are outproducing Russia and there are no convoys coming to Russia either. Southern lend lease income is lost. As a matter of fact if Russia lose Baku they will run out of oil after some offensive turns. The fact is that the Germans are much closer to Omsk than the Russians are to Hamburg.

Russia don't have the number of units to both be offensive and defend Omsk at the same time. They lose each battle to the Luftwaffe since Germany don't have to worry about oil consumption.

I've been in a similar situation myself in Russia as the Germans and it's not that hard to reach Omsk when the Russian units are not behind the German spearhead and Omsk. The panzers move very fast in the Summer and cities will fall like flies.

The main reason the Allies will lose this game is because the combined Allied navy was wiped out. With the Germans dominating the Atlantic they will never get to London and Paris.
It takes almost a year to replace lost battleships and carriers.

Just do the math. London and Paris will be in Axis hands till the end. The same with Rome and Berlin. That is 4 victory cities and Axis ultimate victory. So Russia can liberate Moscow and knock Romania out of the war. They will still lose the game. The only way to win is to get a foothold in western Europe can capture the victory cities.

Let's say the Russians perform magic and crush the Germans in the east. They rush towards Germany and manage to take both Berlin and Hamburg, thus knocking Germany out of the war. The problem is that Italy is still in the game and you now need to take Rome to win. So the Russians will have to spread out. It's not that easy for them to take Rome as well.

If I were Morris I would take this game as a lesson that the Battle of the Atlantic is a battle the Allies can't afford to lose. So it's sometimes better to just be passive and rebuild strength instead of feeding a monster with more juicy targets every turn.

In GS v3.0 Sealion will be a bit more risky for the Axis so it's not a given they will succeed with an invasion. Since the naval units can retreat now you can't use a transport perimeter anymore to protect the DD and BB giving supply. So Germany will have to build more naval units almost from the start to have enough units to supply his invasion.

[Cybvep]

It takes almost a year to replace lost battleships and carriers.

BTW the game is very lenient here. A single BB or CV often took two years to produce and we are talking about an entire SAG or CTF here... Even an u-boat could take an entire year, although the Germans greatly reduced the construction time throughout the war. Naval units, especially capital ships, were quite precious. It was also quite hard to "upgrade" ships the way we can do it in-game, because there is only so much that you can do with an old battleship in 20 days. I guess that with realistic build-times, nobody would ever build any CVs or BBs and losing the navy would result in almost guaranteed Allied defeat due to lack of time (the game ends in May 1945).

I also think that Hue had a big advantage in this game. I'm not so sure about the Ultimate Victory, but I think that it was almost certain that Hue would win. The Allies would run out of time, if nothing else.

[hue]

@Morris numbers:
1. I agree! And I asked you if it was ok to AAR our game and you agreed. What is unfair is to ask in the middle of the game for a stop! That was a lot of time and effort you destroyed here!
2&4. You destroyed exactly 2 (in words TWO) units during winter. And please: if this is you opinion, then let's play on... I am still here waiting for T64!
5. Yes, it's just a game, we are grown ups, and I do respect you... so let's play on and let me AAR (as you agreed at the start of the game)...
6. Malta has got nothing to do with this.
7. I agree... I will send my password to anyone who likes to continue under one condition: I want to see the game AARed till the last turn !!!

@all: sorry for the mess... & Thank you for your kind posts and strategic outlook.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Regarding 1: Hü didn't declare victory. He just posted the moves you had already played before you stopped playing. It's the people who read the AAR who say that Hü is in a very good position to win this game.

When you start a game with someone and accept that one side can make an AAR then you can't in the middle of the game say that you need to stop the AAR because the game didn't go as planned. AAR's show both victories and defeats. Actually people can learn much more from games they struggle in than from games where everything is going to plan.

It's like when you make an interview. You know that it will be published regardless of the outcome of the interview. If you say something you regret then you have to live with reading about it in the newspaper or seeing it on TV the next day. There aren't many people who have the power to stop unfortunate interviews from being published. Not even Obama has that power.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I also think that Hue had a big advantage in this game. I'm not so sure about the Ultimate Victory, but I think that it was almost certain that Hue would win. The Allies would run out of time, if nothing else.

I can't see how it can be anything else but an ultimate victory. London, Paris and Rome won't fall. So the key city is Berlin. How can Germany lose that city when they outproduce Russia and have no oil issues? If the western Allied had had their navy intact THEN I would have agreed with you. Then they could have formed some pressure in the west so the Germans would have to spread their strength.

In this game Germany is not fighting the dreaded two front war. That is why they are winning.

[Cybvep]

I just think that in case of the Allies, it's hard to say when it's truly over. Still, I think that UV was within reach, because the Axis position was strong both at sea and on land. Very impressive.

[Plaid]

It takes almost a year to replace lost battleships and carriers.

BTW the game is very lenient here. A single BB or CV often took two years to produce and we are talking about an entire SAG or CTF here... Even an u-boat could take an entire year, although the Germans greatly reduced the construction time throughout the war. Naval units, especially capital ships, were quite precious. It was also quite hard to "upgrade" ships the way we can do it in-game, because there is only so much that you can do with an old battleship . The Allies would run out of time, if nothing else.

That's true about ground units as well. Training and equipping infantry corps in 20 days is not very realistic. Even more, you can form new units in cities, which are under attack directly/ruined/just liberated.
Same about single button upgrade - no one will "take away" 1000 older tanks and "bring in" 1000 new (and all within single turn).Realistically"upgrade" will be replacing casualties with new weaponry - step by step.

That's some basic game concepts, there always must be some level of abstraction. If try to pursue total realism, playability will suffer - it will be much worse.

[Morris]

.

When you start a game with someone and accept that one side can make an AAR then you can't in the middle of the game say that you need to stop the AAR because the game didn't go as planned. AAR's show both victories and defeats. Actually people can learn much more from games they struggle in than from games where everything is going to plan.

It's like when you make an interview. You know that it will be published regardless of the outcome of the interview. If you say something you regret then you have to live with reading about it in the newspaper or seeing it on TV the next day. There aren't many people who have the power to stop unfortunate interviews from being published. Not even Obama has that power.

Yes sir ! I do learn about it ! & I just hope whenever I will be on Hue's side , I won't be against with this point ! Everyone can be the witness . Thank you !

[DanSlayer]

7 If anyone who believe Hue will win , I can send you the file of turn 63 & ask the password from Hue & we continue this to the end . The truth will test & prove my points .

@Morris numbers:
7. I agree... I will send my password to anyone who likes to continue under one condition: I want to see the game AARed till the last turn !!!

1 + 1 = ???... Morris, I would like to play this game at wroten conditions. What do you mean? Shall we try it? If you agree, I send You my email adress in PM.

[Morris]

7 If anyone who believe Hue will win , I can send you the file of turn 63 & ask the password from Hue & we continue this to the end . The truth will test & prove my points .

@Morris numbers:
7. I agree... I will send my password to anyone who likes to continue under one condition: I want to see the game AARed till the last turn !!!

1 + 1 = ???... Morris, I would like to play this game at wroten conditions. What do you mean? Shall we try it? If you agree, I send You my email adress in PM.

Ok , we will discuss it by email . My email address : ceaw2010@163.com

[Morris]

The problem for Russia is that it doesn't matter if they make progress in the south in the Summer of 1943 if the Germans rush towards Omsk. Russia would need a lot of units to prevent the Germans from reaching Omsk.

Hü had a pretty easy task here. Form a good perimeter around Moscow so the city won't fall to counter attacks and go all in against Omsk. Germany are outproducing Russia and there are no convoys coming to Russia either. Southern lend lease income is lost. As a matter of fact if Russia lose Baku they will run out of oil after some offensive turns. The fact is that the Germans are much closer to Omsk than the Russians are to Hamburg.

Russia don't have the number of units to both be offensive and defend Omsk at the same time. They lose each battle to the Luftwaffe since Germany don't have to worry about oil consumption.

I've been in a similar situation myself in Russia as the Germans and it's not that hard to reach Omsk when the Russian units are not behind the German spearhead and Omsk. The panzers move very fast in the Summer and cities will fall like flies.

The main reason the Allies will lose this game is because the combined Allied navy was wiped out. With the Germans dominating the Atlantic they will never get to London and Paris.
It takes almost a year to replace lost battleships and carriers.

Just do the math. London and Paris will be in Axis hands till the end. The same with Rome and Berlin. That is 4 victory cities and Axis ultimate victory. So Russia can liberate Moscow and knock Romania out of the war. They will still lose the game. The only way to win is to get a foothold in western Europe can capture the victory cities.

Let's say the Russians perform magic and crush the Germans in the east. They rush towards Germany and manage to take both Berlin and Hamburg, thus knocking Germany out of the war. The problem is that Italy is still in the game and you now need to take Rome to win. So the Russians will have to spread out. It's not that easy for them to take Rome as well.

If I were Morris I would take this game as a lesson that the Battle of the Atlantic is a battle the Allies can't afford to lose. So it's sometimes better to just be passive and rebuild strength instead of feeding a monster with more juicy targets every turn.

In GS v3.0 Sealion will be a bit more risky for the Axis so it's not a given they will succeed with an invasion. Since the naval units can retreat now you can't use a transport perimeter anymore to protect the DD and BB giving supply. So Germany will have to build more naval units almost from the start to have enough units to supply his invasion.

Thanks for your analysis ! It sounds reasonable but not completely right .

In Russia , yes the northern group (11 corps) can rush to Omsk , but it usually need a whole year to arrive Omsk from Moscow . It means 18 turns . If we break the southern Axis defence in Russia , God knows what will happen in 1943. Also after liberate Ukraine & industry grow , USSR 's output will grow to 140-150 pp per turn . it means 2500-2700 more pps for Russia . if they just invest 50% of them to defence around Omsk , it means 30+ corps . I really don't believe they can achive this by 20 Axis corps ( I mean they increase 10 more corps plus the present northern group to Omsk). Meanwhile we will probably move into Germany . & Romania & Bulgaria will change side ,Hungary will be out ......

In Altlantic , we lost many navy units , we still have 7 sub & 4 DD in Altlantic & 2 sub & 5 DD will be accomplished within 4 turns . At present Axis have 5 BB , 3 DD & 7 subs . so 9subs & 9DDs against 5BB & 3 DD & 7 subs , no one has the superior over the altlantic .

Regarding to the lesson I learn from this pbem , I will pay more attention on navy building especially after the new sub rules launched .

I do accept Axis has great advantage at present , but it is only 1942 . It is too early to judge the final result . Not everyone who own the advantage of early stage win the final victory !

Anyway , if you don't agree with my point , If you do like anyone who can beat Morris down ,you can suppose you are right . I am so tired of using my poor English to argue about it . Good luck to everyone ! See you in 3.0 !

[Morris]

[quote="hue6. Malta has got nothing to do with this.
[/quote]

Malta accident was the blasting fuse of this matter ! It just like WW2 . Can you consider invation to Polland has nothing to do with the WW2 although it was quite smaller scale comparing with the war with UK , USA , USSR or even with France ?

[Cybvep]

Such matters will never be resolved publicly. Sort them out among yourselves. It's sad when the AARs are polluted by private issues. When in doubt, just state clearly before the game's start that no replays are allowed.

[hue]

Morris, please stop it, this discussion is fruitless. Malta is one PP and no strategic importance in this game... the rest of your statment: there is only one way to convince me and all the others around here: Play on! Come on, I am ready, let's go!!

[Morris]

Such matters will never be resolved publicly. Sort them out among yourselves. It's sad when the AARs are polluted by private issues. When in doubt, just state clearly before the game's start that no replays are allowed.

I do agree with you ! I won't let it happen another time .

[DanSlayer]

7 If anyone who believe Hue will win , I can send you the file of turn 63 & ask the password from Hue & we continue this to the end . The truth will test & prove my points .

@Morris numbers:
7. I agree... I will send my password to anyone who likes to continue under one condition: I want to see the game AARed till the last turn !!!

1 + 1 = ???... Morris, I would like to play this game at wroten conditions. What do you mean? Shall we try it? If you agree, I send You my email adress in PM.

Ok , we will discuss it by email . My email address : ceaw2010@163.com

Sorry guys. The AAR will not be continued by me. The negotiations with Morris have failed. Morris don't agree the continuation of the AAR so I couldn't use Hues passwort (which I allready get) to play this game out.

...so we will never see the truth which "test and proves" Morris' points...

[richardsd]

Such matters will never be resolved publicly. Sort them out among yourselves. It's sad when the AARs are polluted by private issues. When in doubt, just state clearly before the game's start that no replays are allowed.

Well I think the default is no replays, but that doesn't mean someone can't offer - the game does throw out the occasional outlier result and it can make a big difference in some situations

In one of my current games I have just offered to replay a turn - the Axis are pushing for Egypt and in the battle of el Alamein my defenders got an extraordinary result, two FTR's, 1 intercepted and an ARM and CORP's attack destroyed an Axis ARM (high efficiency 9 steps), 4 attacks that all scored equal or better on the expected odds, the last a 2-2 CORPs attack inflicted the final 3 steps on the ARM - I hate to think what the odds were for that outcome

something like this could have a huge outcome for the game so I am happy to replay it, my intention had been to slow it down for a couple of turns, we certainly got that!

[supermax]

hum hum...

Seems like Deja vu to me...

Some guys (Hu) picks up a shovel and hammers Moriss with it. He doesn't like it. Story becomes a fuss.

Been there, done that! But now me and moriss have beaten each other and we are thru this. We now play for fun

hehehe

HU, ive had a look at your AAR and I would love to tackle you as allies in 3.0.