Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

[deducter]

I did a longish post, commenting on units in early DLC's with your mod. I decided to post only the link in this topic, as the post itself is too long and would break the flow of discussion. (Sorry for lack of URL tag, cannot use it yet on the forum).

viewtopic.php?f=145&t=34590

Thanks for your feedback, my comments are posted in the link.

[ivanov]

Assuming that the new version of your file will include the chages of the recon, and CD buff of the assault guns and towed AT and AA, when do you expect it to be released?

[deducter]

The latest version is out, along with the manual. It has about 40 pages of pure text, along with a 10-page table of contents.

[ivanov]

Great job!

I think it will take me some time to go through the manual but I praise your work.

I was curious how you were going to feature the developement of the Panther tank in the mod and I have to say, that I disagree with making the G model so expensive. Actually that version was the best one of all ( also produced in the largest number ) because of it's reliability and design simplification. It is thanks to that model, the Panther is usually considered "the best" tank of the WWII. Maybe it would look strange that every new model of Panzer V is cheapper than it's predecessor, but that would have a historical justification. Maybe you could make the G version much cheapper in 1945?

[deducter]

I just didn't want to make the G model the default upgrade model, so as soon as you have it you go immediately to the G. By having it be more expensive, perhaps the Panther A will get some more use.

Perhaps I'll think of a different way of doing that.

I have no plans on making anything cheaper in 1945. Despite the increase in production in 1944, the Allied bombings were taking a toll. Plus with the lost of the oil fields of Ploeisti, the Germans weren't in any position to operate much of their equipment, even if they could build them. Many German planes/tanks sat around uselessly because of a lack of fuel.

[ivanov]

In fairness, only the Volkssturm should be cheap and abundant in 1945

Maybe it would be worth to make the Panther D nonpurchasable for 1944-45? I know, that you want most of the units to be usefull somehow in your mod, but actually the Panther G wasn't in any aspect worst than the previous versions, while it was much easier to produce. I think that the Germans were even testing some prototype of the night vision of that version... Unlike it happened with the Panzer IV ( where the last versions of it were practically a new type of tank in comparison to the earlier models ), the improvements of the subsequent versions of the Panther, weren't focused on the tanks combat performance but:

a) Tanks reliability - version A

b) Simplification of the production process - version G

I wouldn't really improve much the stats between the versions. Maybe the A should have +1GD ( additional side armor plates ) and the G +1CD ( zimmerit coat to protect the tank from the magnetic mines ) and both - more fuel than the D.

[deducter]

I would prefer to have the Panther A and Panther G work side by side if at all possible. They actually have two different graphics. I understand that historically the Ausf. G was the best, cheapest variant, but I just didn't want the player to make an automatic upgrade in game.

That said, Panther prices in 1944 are too high. I'll probably have the most expensive cap out at 850ish prestige instead of 1000ish.

We can just leave it like the current model, where the Panther A has some limited AA capability but the Panther G doesn't. We can tweak the ammo/fuel slightly to favor the Panther A, although I don't like that idea. We can keep the Panther G more expensive, at say 850ish prestige while the Panther A will cost 780-800ish prestige. But I'm not too keen on making the Panther G cheaper than the Panther A unless everyone else agrees with that.

[ivanov]

That said, Panther prices in 1944 are too high. I'll probably have the most expensive cap out at 850ish prestige instead of 1000ish.

I would strongly support that, because from 1944 onwards, the Panthers became a mass produced tank ( as for the German standards ) and along with the Panzers IV a backbone of the Panzerwaffe. For example during the operation Wacht am Rhein, the German divisions were full of new Panthers G, but they lacked experienced crews and an average US tanker was probably better trained at that time than their german counterparts.

[Chris10]

I think that the Germans were even testing some prototype of the night vision of that version...

a little understatement....
Germany developed Nightvision devices of the Generation 0 already in 1940 but did not pursue it seriously. Only when allied air superiority became dangerous to german armor considerations and opinions changed.
Quite a considerable number of Panther G-1 and Panther G-2 were equipped with the FG1250.
Known units who received these tanks were 45. Panzerdivision Clausewitz, Panzer Lehr Division and Führer-Grenadier-Division.
The Panzerdivision Münchberg which got levied in March 1945 got a Night-Panther Unit with 10 tanks
As well there was the KG (Kampfgruppe) Schulze (Major) with 5 Nightvision Panthers and 6 Tigers in Fallingbostel in April 1945.
Nightvision Panthers were also participating in the Lake Balaton offensive (Spring Awakening) in March 1945.
According to some russian veterans these Panthers caused havoc to russian armor during night because of the obvious advantage.
Not 100% confirmed but the Panzerdivision "Kurmark" which fought on the eastern front very likely possessed nightvision Panthers too.
At least they appear on some equipment delivery accounts.
The delivery of the FG1250-Nightvisiondevice started in June 1944 and the sniper version of the Stg44 is the first nightvision rifle in the world.
Over 1200 devices were delivered from which an unknown number got mounted on Panther G1 and G2 but this was proper equipment and no prototype thing.
Additionally there were a range of other vehicles who got equipped with nighvision devices such as the Recon Puma, some SdKfz 251, a Jagdpanther unit and some anti tank platoons using the 7,5cm Pak and others.
It would go really to far to name it all and write down the complete history of nightvision in the german Wehrmacht so I post some images

Panther G1-NIghtvision


Panther G-2 Nightvision


SdKfZ-251 Nightvision


After the war british soldier with captured Stg 44 with the mounted ZF 1229 Vampire NightVision System. 310 got delivered



sorry for OT..sometimes I get carried away

[ivanov]

It's a pitty that there are no night turns in the game - the night vision Panther G could spread then hate and discontent

[flakfernrohr]

Ivanov, all you need to do is go to the Equipment Editor and "tweak" a few adjustments a bit to give them the edge they would have in a turn. Remember a "turn" is a FULL DAY of battle. If you adjust the iniative upwards 1, spotting 1, movement 1, etc. you will have some "night vision" Panthers.

[ivanov]

Hi Flak,

I was just messing around - I don't think, that the night vision capability of very limited of Panthers should be reflected in the Deducter's efile. However I agree with him that the Panzers V should be in cheapper.

[orlinos]

1. The commanders of my recon units used were very happy for being treated in such a special way. Their smiles quickly faded when I told them that due to increase of the prices, they will never be fed again. Lakes in Russia are big, they can go fishing.

2. Congratulations on the manual - it's huge but very well organised. And thanks for including Ivanov and me in the Acknowledgements section - I'm beaming with pride, since I have just started posting here. Maybe that will make more people come out of the hiding and share their opinions. At this point the e-file is much more than just a "difficulty mod" and I think it may be well enjoyed even by novice players (maybe after bumping the prestige for oneself a bit).

3. Jokes aside, I'm curious if the way I treat recon units will change. Until now, I only used them as "tanks" from time to time in the DLC's 39-40. Apart from recon duties, they would usually close gaps, allowing me to enforce surrender - and then I retreated them. I also used them to close holes in my own defenses, especially the flanks. Such behaviour might have to end, since my beloved, agile SdKfz 232 8Rad costs as much as a medium tank.

In DLC's 41-42 I have almost stopped using recon to perform any attacks, since they are so fragile. Maybe I'll finally buy SdKfz 231 6Rad on my next play.

The way I see it now, it might be wise to use dedicated recon units up front - to perfom reconnaissance on unknown areas - because of their spotting = 4. Combat recon might be useful in the back, where their smaller spotting doesn't matter (since the fog of war is already lifted) - but their special movement will allow me to use hit-and-run tactics.

4. I don't exactly undestand what's happening with early III and IV tanks. While browsing my comparisons files, I've noticed this:



Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIG-J are not purchasable anymore. Is it because they are obsolete and were not produced anymore? Still, I do not understand the decrease of Panzer IVD's initiative and hard attack. Is it intentional or a mistake?

P.S.
I updated the comparisons file, it's much bigger now:
download/file.php?id=527

[deducter]

I disabled a lot of the early war tanks in 1944 because I also added nopurchase to various SE panzers so you won't get them as a reward. Why would High Command give you an "elite" Panzer IVD in 1944?

The stats are inconsistent because they were holdovers from an earlier version. I can go in and fix it, but I seriously doubt anyone is playing with a Panzer IVD in 1944. Even I'm not crazy enough to do that. Your panzer would last about 2 or 3 hits from Russian tanks.

[orlinos]

I disabled a lot of the early war tanks in 1944 because I also added nopurchase to various SE panzers so you won't get them as a reward. Why would High Command give you an "elite" Panzer IVD in 1944?

The stats are inconsistent because they were holdovers from an earlier version. I can go in and fix it, but I seriously doubt anyone is playing with a Panzer IVD in 1944. Even I'm not crazy enough to do that. Your panzer would last about 2 or 3 hits from Russian tanks.

Oh, I get it. I was thinking it was probably something like that. (My Panzer IVD was dying fast even in 1941, so it's true, that in 1944 it would behave as if made from porcelain).

[nikivdd]

I downloaded the latest version today.
The manual is truly a great explanation why this and that unit was changed for this and that reason and i enjoy the logic behind the changes.
For now I'm just going to give some of my impressions for the part of the manual up to 1939.
Usually i'm thinking about the grand scheme of things, in terms of an entire campaign with a single efile. But when i start to think about the motivations and reasoning to have a seperate e-file per year, taking different factors in consideration, this is a far more interesting approach in terms of unitselection, prestige and gameplay in general. Not only do things change for the units, i also have a first impression that the player has no choice but to adapt his way of gameplay for each year.
For 1939 i am already surprised that the PzIIC and Pz38(t) receive and truly deserve a "second" life further down the road. With this in mind, i will think twice before upgrading them.
I became a fan of the supposition that the player is punished when upgrading to a different unit family and that in general you must maintain a variety of unit classes and unit families with each their distinctive roles if you want to make it to the end.
I cannot imagine how much time and effort went into research and testing to shape the e-files as they are at present. Great work!

[orlinos]

nikivdd:

I second your thoughts on PzIIC and Pz38(t)! Before my present run through early DLC's I would still try upgrade all my tanks to the newest model - it's just that I had them in very small numbers and would sometime have to wait a bit to upgrade them (I use -50% prestige settings on flags and scenario rewards).

This time I experimented with letting those little beasties do their job unupgraded for a long time and it paid well - the fact is, there is often little sense in paying for the best tanks, if their only job is to protect the flanks or enforce retreat or surrender. It's financial overkill.

It's getting much harder to use them in '42, because even if KV's don't kill them, endless conscripts will. But before, my little PzIIC with a A+3 hero and 3 stars would lay waste to many powerful tanks, pushing them into rivers or forests. And all that for such a small price to pay in elite reinforcements and overstrenght!

(The funny thing is, I also had a great-little PzIB, with heroes and experience. I finally decided to turn him into a PanzerIVD... and he immediately went KIA on me). HE WILL BE REMEMBERED.

[deducter]

nikivdd:

I second your thoughts on PzIIC and Pz38(t)! Before my present run through early DLC's I would still try upgrade all my tanks to the newest model - it's just that I had them in very small numbers and would sometime have to wait a bit to upgrade them (I use -50% prestige settings on flags and scenario rewards).

This time I experimented with letting those little beasties do their job unupgraded for a long time and it paid well - the fact is, there is often little sense in paying for the best tanks, if their only job is to protect the flanks or enforce retreat or surrender. It's financial overkill.

It's getting much harder to use them in '42, because even if KV's don't kill them, endless conscripts will. But before, my little PzIIC with a A+3 hero and 3 stars would lay waste to many powerful tanks, pushing them into rivers or forests. And all that for such a small price to pay in elite reinforcements and overstrenght!

(The funny thing is, I also had a great-little PzIB, with heroes and experience. I finally decided to turn him into a PanzerIVD... and he immediately went KIA on me). HE WILL BE REMEMBERED.

One thing to note that by 1942, you really aren't meant to use the Panzer II or Panzer I anymore. I specifically added nopurchase flags for this reason. In fact, the Panzer II is changed to the AT class, because there's no other way it would be possible for it to be upgradeable to the Marder II. I consider the feature of having a Panzer II be upgraded in 1942 better than the sin of having the Panzer II belong incorrectly to the AT class in 1942.

If you watch my videos for 1941, you'll see that an experienced Panzer II is badly outclassed by green KV-1 or T-34, as it should be. But the Panzer II still works well against the BT tanks or the T-26s, for instance.

My current testing of the recon units suggest that they are actually balanced fairly well. They are much more resistant to tank attacks. Don't underestimate elite reinforcing them at the deployment stage, since it grants them even more defenses, which is critical to helping them survive engagements. Of course if you can't afford it, you are better off paying for more vital units.

[nikivdd]

Is it possible that with the stat changes for allied units, their behaviour towards the player's units has changed as well?
I made a little scenario to try the 39 efile and i have the impression that the polish units are acting "differently".
To be more concrete, in another project when i scripted several enemy units to attack (in a scenario where the enemy is defender), they moved forward like blind moles towards the nearest VH.
In this test scenario, one case (a 7TP in a forest hex) didn't move , just stayed on station and in other cases the units moved (cavalry on clear hexes) and attacked when some of my units were detected.

[deducter]

Is it possible that with the stat changes for allied units, their behaviour towards the player's units has changed as well?
I made a little scenario to try the 39 efile and i have the impression that the polish units are acting "differently".
To be more concrete, in another project when i scripted several enemy units to attack (in a scenario where the enemy is defender), they moved forward like blind moles towards the nearest VH.
In this test scenario, one case (a 7TP in a forest hex) didn't move , just stayed on station and in other cases the units moved (cavalry on clear hexes) and attacked when some of my units were detected.

Yes, there are changes. In general, because the AI's units have been buffed, they will tend to attack more. The changes are subtle and not obvious except to the experienced player.

For instance, in 1943 the Soviets will buy T-34/43 towards the end of scenarios to counterattack with. I think it's more realistic and fun than seeing 5 KV-1C or IS-1 spawn.

In general, the Soviets are more aggressive with their units on the attack. This is particularly noticeable with air units in 1943. They Soviets WILL attack into your fighters with some of their good ones (La-5FN, Yak-9D, and especially the Yak-3). This is really true for your fighters that have been weakened to say 7 strength. The AI can and will kill those fighters of yours. It really does require a completely different mindset for your air units in 1943. Using them aggressively will cripple your prestige. Instead, hold them back to cover your units (especially your expensive units, the artillery and Tiger/Panthers). Hold them back near your FlaK. Lure the AI's fighters in, then weaken them with FlaK and finish them off with mass attacks.

The air war is really hard in 1944 because by then, even air parity is very challenging. The Soviets will swarm and kill your fighters, and then, well, they can run rampant with their air units. You have to be very, very careful with your air units by then. All of this is historical and really gives you a sense of the futility of the war. Perhaps some players will find it frustrating, but, well, so did the Germans.