The Rally Point

[Brindlebane]

I'm rookie status and this will be my first season playing any comp.Could someone stick a list up of all Known armies that aren't allowed.I've gotten hold of all the packs now except Eternal Empire.So i'm still experimenting with armies and general composition but i don't want to be practicing with armies that will be classed 'Uber'.Not that they'll be uber in my hands anyway,just wouldn't mind a heads up from those in the know.Cheers.

Paul-Brindlebane

[ericdoman1]

Just in case you haven't set up a private message

Hi Paul

Firstly it all depends on who uses the so called uber armies, who you are facing and what armies they will use and if you win initiative. Yep a lot of ifs and maybes.

The uber armies are in my opinion - ROR, Post Seleucid; SOA, Med Crown Aragon early, ANglo Irish (later better option, as longbows can have stakes); IF - Classical SPartan; SAS - Latin Greece Achaia with Catalan allies, LT - Dacian, Palmyran and Jewish armies, EE Catalan Company and DAF Dailami, Christian Nubian and Arab Conquest (Later is the best as you have more options).

The bold armies have done very well in leagues and competitions

The fact is that they may be uber armies but are still beatable. The beauty of this game is that most armies have a chance of beating any other army.

Cheers


Eric

[Jonathan4290]

You could choose the Numidians as LH are exempt. Just take only 2 more LF (don't know why you'd want any more than the 8 required anyways) and take Roman allies, which I hope you'd be doing anyways. I've played as Numidians (Juba list) and they can do some damage.

[stockwellpete]

Could someone stick a list up of all Known armies that aren't allowed.

Later Moorish and Later Moorish (later). That's all. Both are from the "Decline and Fall" expansion that is used for Early Middle Ages. They both comprise mostly of skirmishers and fall foul of the 50/10 rule.

[stockwellpete]

I just wish to clarify something as there is a possibility some players may have gotten the wrong impression. The latter part of my post is based on what happened in WRG5th and 6th edition a long time ago. Rules were being changed by players who only really wanted to benefit thmselves. These were players who only played in a small club and wished to remain the best at that club. They never went to comps, as they knew they would be soundly beaten and even went as far as to interpret rules differently to have an advantage at that club.

As for the organisers in these comps, I have a lot of respect for the work they do and they do know the game so a big thank you to all.

I do not mind the 50/10 rule and so will play but of course if other ideas were brought in that would put me off playing, I like others would stop playing. For example I do not play in fogman's comps (now) as Fog of War and double moves are off

Thank you for the clarification, Eric. I was wondering whether I should feel mildly insulted or not.

I should point out that at the start of the first season Mark, Oskar and myself took a conscious decision not to do ourselves any favours at all in terms of which armies we would be allocated, or which divisions we would play in - so that there would be no question of us being accused of getting unfair advantages. In myself and Mark's case we put ourselves in the "A" divisions of some sections even though we knew we were likely to be outclassed there and all three of us disqualified ourselves from the themed event so that other people could play in the first such competition.

[ericdoman1]

Not trying to be a pain

Just to clarify can you use Dailami with lf support in other armies. Hamdanids of ALeppo can have 8 and other armies can have 9 if they choose allies.

Based on what Demetrios has mentioned in EMA post best to specify in Dailami and Arab Conquest armies that no lf supporting troops can be bought

[Yuknoom]

One army that comes to mind as being perhaps unfairly dealt with here is the Medieval Irish. As usually played this is not a Hoard, as most take the maximum Galloglaich and they are not that cheap. So you aren't huge numbers, and can't really dance and hide. Yet you have 16 required kern, and some other spare points. They are simply better, and probably more historical, as mostly Lights with some MI for rough terrain.
Just a thought, a sort of 'unintended consequences' thing, but this Comp restriction somewhat unfairly hobbles them.

[stockwellpete]

One army that comes to mind as being perhaps unfairly dealt with here is the Medieval Irish. As usually played this is not a Hoard, as most take the maximum Galloglaich and they are not that cheap. So you aren't huge numbers, and can't really dance and hide. Yet you have 16 required kern, and some other spare points. They are simply better, and probably more historical, as mostly Lights with some MI for rough terrain.
Just a thought, a sort of 'unintended consequences' thing, but this Comp restriction somewhat unfairly hobbles them.

My last selection for a Medieval Irish (later) army at 400pts was as follows . . .

3 leader units (field-troop-troop)
2x armoured cavalry
3x LH
10x Gallo Nobles
2x Gallo
26x (average MF) Kerns
7x (average LF) Kerns

Total units = 50

Nothing unfair or "hobbling" about that line-up, I would suggest.

[stockwellpete]

Not trying to be a pain

Just to clarify can you use Dailami with lf support in other armies. Hamdanids of ALeppo can have 8 and other armies can have 9 if they choose allies.

Based on what Demetrios has mentioned in EMA post best to specify in Dailami and Arab Conquest armies that no lf supporting troops can be bought

I think we need to talk about this on the committee. Logically we shouldn't allow them is my first reaction - I'll have a look shortly to see how many armies with Dailami allies we are talking about here. Thanks for pointing this out.

[ianiow]

I think there should be a blanket ban on all lf supported units if the list can provide a normal unsupported alternative. They just give too much of a cheesy advantage for no points cost.

[stockwellpete]

I think there should be a blanket ban on all lf supported units if the list can provide a normal unsupported alternative. They just give too much of a cheesy advantage for no points cost.

I tend to agree but I think that might be very difficult to police in this tournament. I have gone through "Decline and Fall" and the three Bedouin armies (Hamdanids, Hamdanids of Aleppo and Iqyaylids) can pick 8 Dailami with bows which I think we need to do something about. Other armies can pick 3, 4 or 5 Dailamis with bows, which are slightly less problematic. One solution might be to just outlaw Dailamis with bows. It is very simple and would solve the problem.

[stockwellpete]

I am just starting to look at what we might offer in Season 3 (starting June 1st) for the themed event section. In the first two seasons this part of the competition has been a mixture of DAG matches and scenarios, so we could go down that route again. Alternatively, it would be possible for us to provide an entirely scenario-based selection of matches. As you may know I have written over 100 scenarios now so one possibility is for us to put together a late medieval/early modern selection from 1488 to 1601 including such battles as St Aubin du Cormier 1488, Seminara 1495, Knockdoe 1504, Flodden Field 1513, Pavia 1525, Linlithgow Bridge 1526, Ancrum Moor 1545, Pinkie Cleugh 1547, Dreux 1562, Yellow Ford 1598 and Kinsale 1601.

So what do you think? Would you like something like this for a change? Let us know what you think and then the committee can discuss our options for Season 3.

Please note: this is not a recruitment thread, we are just trying to find out if there is general support for this idea.

[ulysisgrunt]

This sounds wonderful....
How will you model the superior performance of firearms?
Danny Weitz

[stockwellpete]

This sounds wonderful....
How will you model the superior performance of firearms?
Danny Weitz

Arquebusiers are dealt with In two basic ways - either they are represented within the actual pike units (the pikes are set up as mixed units, with firearms capability) or they are represented separately as light foot units that are drilled, impact foot with firearms and swords. So the arquebusiers do get quite a bit of protection in these scenarios which makes up for the fact that their firepower is less than it should be because we are having to use firearms units instead. It is not perfect, but it is not to bad at all and the units are quite distinctive from the ordinary firearms units you might get on a late medieval battlefield. In the Pavia 1525 scenario (which is a strong candidate to be the scenario used for the final if this idea has good support) you will find both pike units with firearms capability and specialist arquebusier units.

[Londo]

I would really like this! Among other things, its a nice way of finding out the basics of battles and campaigns about which one may not know much.

When playing your scenarios, and those of the other prolific scenario designers here, if I'm not familiar with the battle, I go and read the relevant Wikipedia page, follow the links to other articles, and sometimes end up ordering in books on the subject. Wargaming is the most enjoyable way of getting a bit of education in military history!

Suggestion: why not open it up to any scenario designers who have created scenarios in a particular period or campaign? Invite anyone to submit, then set up an assortment for the league themed event. Even if some are unbalanced - as they will often be, given that the historical battles were often very unbalanced - it won't matter, given that it will be paired games. And people will have the opportunity to experience the different design philosophies of the various designers. (It can be remarkable how the same battle can be modelled very differently by different people.)

But even if its just your scenarios, I would thoroughly support this proposal.

[Londo]

And also, the early modern period is really interesting with all the military change that was going on, clumsy medieval armies transitioning into more sophisticated and balanced outfits.

Danny raised arquebusiers, and I think you've got a good solution there. Another problem will be reiters, how do you make pistol-armed cavalry work? One of fogman's scenarios I played recently had German reiters as Armoured Cavalry, Firearm, Swordsman, and gave them better morale than the French gendarmes (Superior as compared to Average). So the reiters had quite a good chance of disrupting the gendarmes with pistol fire. They were also good against poor-quality French infantry.

[stockwellpete]

And also, the early modern period is really interesting with all the military change that was going on, clumsy medieval armies transitioning into more sophisticated and balanced outfits.

Danny raised arquebusiers, and I think you've got a good solution there. Another problem will be reiters, how do you make pistol-armed cavalry work? One of fogman's scenarios I played recently had German reiters as Armoured Cavalry, Firearm, Swordsman, and gave them better morale than the French gendarmes (Superior as compared to Average). So the reiters had quite a good chance of disrupting the gendarmes with pistol fire. They were also good against poor-quality French infantry.

Yes, I do something very similar with mounted cavalry who have pistols e.g. Ancrum Moor 1545 or Pinkie Cleugh 1547 (this one also has warships in it !). I have over 20 scenarios available in this early modern period - we will actually need just 15 for the themed events if we decide to go down this route.

[ulysisgrunt]

Would it be possible to model the arquebusiers as unprotected medium foot?

[stockwellpete]

Would it be possible to model the arquebusiers as unprotected medium foot?

I did try that at first, but they kept getting massacred. In the older scenarios that I have done the arquebusiers are more often represented as separate LF, impact foot contingents. In the more recent scenarios I have tended to put the arquebusiers in with the pike blocks unless descriptions of the battle suggest they operated independently. The scenarios are in the "stickies" section of the scenario forum and can be downloaded from there. Try Yellow Ford 1598 or Kinsale 1601 to see how they perform.

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/forum/viewt ... 92&t=32786

I will give all the scenarios the "once over" if we do decide to use them in the tournament.

[stockwellpete]

Any more thoughts?