Panzer Corps East - The struggle for Russia "Grand Strategy"

[Chris10]

This is not allowed! Verboten.

actually I have a fourlough

[Chris10]

Ohh..thats better...
So Iam back on it then...

[VPaulus]

[RobertCL]

I can't wait for this, the Heinschel 129 and all those camouflaged units, great work!
Plus a huge map with borders, exactly what I was looking for!!!

[Chris10]

btw the forum needs better smileys as the existing ones are at best agonizingly bad....

[Chris10]

I can't wait for this, the Heinschel 129 and all those camouflaged units, great work!
Plus a huge map with borders, exactly what I was looking for!!!

Thank you very much. I will give my very best in order to realize this ol PG dream of mine...seems I dont dream alone

[flakfernrohr]

I can't wait for this, the Heinschel 129 and all those camouflaged units, great work!
Plus a huge map with borders, exactly what I was looking for!!!

Thank you very much. I will give my very best in order to realize this ol PG dream of mine...seems I dont dream alone

Not on THIS kind of deal have you dreamt alone.

[nikivdd]

The AI, as it is at present, is a limitation to this great endeveour. But if the AI would receive a boost in the next update, than this project could give the satisfaction, armchair sweat and fun as it really truly deserves.
It is a collossal job what Chris is doing and i can say this...respect!

[alex0809]

Also, Afrika Korps will include the ability to change scenario objectives, so I think you should wait until it is released because without changing scenario objectives this might be a bit confusing to play.

[Chris10]

Also, Afrika Korps will include the ability to change scenario objectives, so I think you should wait until it is released because without changing scenario objectives this might be a bit confusing to play.

hmm..why should it be confusing to play ?..for the german side its pretty obvious what the goal is, isnt it ?
> Take all objectives.
For the soviets the mission is clear too
> Stop the onslaught and take all objectives
The longer the war takes the more likely the german side will be unable to achieve their goal cause I will assure attrition while the soviet side is supposed to become stronger over time.
Iam not revealing all the details yet but there will be some sort of time window and once it passed it will become more and more difficult.
At least thats the filosofy behind all this.

But in anyway Iam tempted to wait for AK..on the other hand It would be really a pity if only people who have AK could play Panzercorps East with full fun.
Its really a catch 22

The AI, as it is at present, is a limitation to this great endeveour. But if the AI would receive a boost in the next update, than this project could give the satisfaction, armchair sweat and fun as it really truly deserves.
It is a collossal job what Chris is doing and i can say this...respect!

Ohh, thats very kind of you Niko...thank you very much for the flowers ...
And yes..you are right about AI things in general and as I said above...its some sort of catch 22 with AK.

[bebro]

I'm only speculating without any inside knowledge, but maybe - *maybe* - they add the AI boost and editor stuff to the overall patch 1.06 that's supposed to come with AK IIRC. Because they did similar when releasing the recent patches, so vanilla players got stuff supposed to be for the DLCs initially, which I found was a nice move

Of course AK is more than just a DLC, but ...time will tell.

[alex0809]

hmm..why should it be confusing to play ?..for the german side its pretty obvious what the goal is, isnt it ?
> Take all objectives.
For the soviets the mission is clear too
> Stop the onslaught and take all objectives
The longer the war takes the more likely the german side will be unable to achieve their goal cause I will assure attrition while the soviet side is supposed to become stronger over time.
Iam not revealing all the details yet but there will be some sort of time window and once it passed it will become more and more difficult.
At least thats the filosofy behind all this.

But in anyway Iam tempted to wait for AK..on the other hand It would be really a pity if only people who have AK could play Panzercorps East with full fun.
Its really a catch 22

Well I don't know how much you can actually achieve with Panzer Corps and later with Africa Corps scripting-wise, I only spent short time trying out the scenario editor. But even if the objective is always "take Russia" , I assume you will also be able to change the BRIEFING SHEET for every turn in Africa Corps - because right now it is the same briefing for every turn if I am not mistaken? THAT would be the thing I think is important.
Because then you could include any messages or info for the specific date (like "Russia just moved their forces from Siberia to Moscow") or whatever.

[Chris10]

Well I don't know how much you can actually achieve with Panzer Corps and later with Africa Corps scripting-wise, I only spent short time trying out the scenario editor. But even if the objective is always "take Russia" , I assume you will also be able to change the BRIEFING SHEET for every turn in Africa Corps - because right now it is the same briefing for every turn if I am not mistaken? THAT would be the thing I think is important.
Because then you could include any messages or info for the specific date (like "Russia just moved their forces from Siberia to Moscow") or whatever.

Yup,the ability to display messages durig the course of the war would be nice but I stated it before somewhere along this topic. I dont want the player to force to play the game only in one possible way. I will set up the overall scenario,set the strength of boths ides into relation, set up some counteroffenses when taking/approaching certain objectives but the overall goal is to maintain the strategic freedom for the player while simulating the relative strength and production of both sides...which will obviously wear out the german wehrmacht and give the edge to the soviets the longer the war takes.
In reality all this could be achieved with the game right now otherwise I would not have started this project but hey...a smarter AI and more features are always wellcome

I'm only speculating without any inside knowledge, but maybe - *maybe* - they add the AI boost and editor stuff to the overall patch 1.06 that's supposed to come with AK IIRC. Because they did similar when releasing the recent patches, so vanilla players got stuff supposed to be for the DLCs initially, which I found was a nice move

oh yeah...that would be pretty nice...

[Chris10]

UPDATE 01.06.2012
After thoroughly thinking it through I have decided to wait for the release of Africa Korps to take advantage of all the new features, better AI, modding possibilites, editor and scripting improvements. Given the size and complexity of the project, the expanded timeframe of several years and the huge campaign map I seriously think it will make for a much better result and will worth the wait.
The map is done and I will code in the rest of the axis minors and aditional soviet and lend lease units and work a bit on the PzC East library. With a bit of luck I have everything prepared for just putting the pieces together once Afrika Korps will be released.
As well there are new and even better tiles underway from our great tile artist Massi which additionally will assure an even better map...thnx a bunch Massi.
viewtopic.php?f=147&t=26778
If you feel like you have a great idea or you want to see this or that implemented now there is still a little time to be able to discuss these things so dont hesitate and forward your thoughts , comments, questions, objections or whatever crosses your mind.

[nikivdd]

UPDATE 01.06.2012
After thoroughly thinking it through I have decided to wait for the release of Africa Korps to take advantage of all the new features, better AI, modding possibilites, editor and scripting improvements. Given the size and complexity of the project, the expanded timeframe of several years and the huge campaign map I seriously think it will make for a much better result and will worth the wait.
The map is done and I will code in the rest of the axis minors and aditional soviet and lend lease units and work a bit on the PzC East library. With a bit of luck I have everything prepared for just putting the pieces together once Afrika Korps will be released.
As well there are new and even better tiles underway from our great tile artist Massi which additionally will assure an even better map...thnx a bunch Massi.
viewtopic.php?f=147&t=26778
If you feel like you have a great idea or you want to see this or that implemented now there is still a little time to be able to discuss these things so dont hesitate and forward your thoughts , comments, objections or whatever crosses your mind.

A wise decission even if we have to wait a bit longer.
I have a few questions for you nonetheless.
- How are you going to handle prestige (per turn)? I can imagine the longer down the road, the less prestige will be given. Any possibility of scripted events that deduct prestige from time to time, to simulate allied bombings over Germany?
- Will there be capturable units when taking certain key objectives? (probably a double scripted map and time event - for i cannot imagine to capture a KV-85 in 1942)
- Will the player be able to purchase axis minor units or will they appear on the map?
- I am curious how you think to handle Soviet Siberian reinforcements?
- Any thoughts how you might influence the AI in the purchase of new units? - with the illogical AI choices from the DLC's in mind.

I hope those questions won't give you any headache, i am just very curious, impatient and anxious for the release version . Thanks Chris for your time.

[flakfernrohr]

Good idea and solution to the dilemma "MOZART".

When all is done you will have no dilemma about "what you could have done" because it will be done as you envisioned, cutting edge and ground breaking. Ultimate.

[Chris10]

I hope those questions won't give you any headache, i am just very curious

No problem at all...new questions sometimes lead to new answers or new thoughts so making questions is always useful in one or another way

- How are you going to handle prestige (per turn)? I can imagine the longer down the road, the less prestige will be given.

This is still a big "unknown". There will be a mix of prestige capture flag,victory hex,per turn,taken special objective/fabric and timeframe...
What I will try to make sure though is that the prestige (I call it Industrial Production - IP) will be close to the historical relation and according to timeframe.
I have thought of a simple but effective system but until a first playtest everything is theoretical...I have to see how it works under combat conditions

Any possibility of scripted events that deduct prestige from time to time, to simulate allied bombings over Germany?

I dont want to spoil this right now but I have things build into the map in order to allow for this sort of event. If it will work to 100% depends on what scripting options are really coming with AK.

- Will there be capturable units when taking certain key objectives? (probably a double scripted map and time event - for i cannot imagine to capture a KV-85 in 1942)

I havent really thought about this as each PzC unit of tank equals a 100 tanks in PzC East. So how I gonna handle this ? I dont know...

The KV-85 for example was anyawy only a low number build of 148 units since there were huge problems with the production of the D5T 85mm cannon and once the cannon was available in sufficient numbers it was already decided that it got mounted in the T34/85 instead of the KW-85 and IS-1.

Maybe throwing in 1 or 2 units for the looters but since there is no upgrade they become obsolete soon and will have to perform anti partisan dutys in the rear...oh,and btw...there will be partisans to annoy the german commanders....

- Will the player be able to purchase axis minor units or will they appear on the map?

Basically yes but the real question is. Is there any purchasable unit ?...The Wehrmachts maximum strength was on Operation Barbarossa...since then it sufferd continuous attrition and the allied axis armys got never replaced once they have been wiped off the eastern battlefields.

The first playtest will really determine which way this is gonna be handled.

- I am curious how you think to handle Soviet Siberian reinforcements?

There will be huge counteroffenses in place once approaching or taking certain objects.

- Any thoughts how you might influence the AI in the purchase of new units? - with the illogical AI choices from the DLC's in mind.

Yes..a lot of thoughts...this is all under control but no early spoilers here
The ingame manual > library will explain this in detail.

[RobertCL]

Hello,

A few ideas and questions:

1. Would the player be able to decide where to strike ?

Let's suppose the player has to seize 15 VHs on the map anywhere he chooses during turn 1, I am the German commander for Barbarossa and I want to focus on the Northern part and seize Leningrad first, then the Centre part Moscow and I deliberately decide to be "calm" in the south as long as I seize all my 15 VHs in the Northern and Centre part of the front. Would it be possible ?

2. Ergonomics

My dream is to have this huge map but will it be easy for a player to locate easily where he really stands ? A short map makes map spotting/location for the player more easily, no ?

Will the introduction text for each scenario be spoken too ?
Will there be a German version (for texts) ?

3. Game engine

Will AI understand what to do at such a large scale ?

4. Gameplay

I am a bad player and I like cheating, I suppose I could still use the cheat keys to have max of prestige.
I say this because I playtested the DLC campaigns and I was happy to benefit from this possibility, this not prevented me to lose a few 5 star units...
I understood the unique units will appear once but I hope the player will still be able to purchase standard units ?
Will he be able to purchase Waffen SS units or will they be only given in a limited nr as extra units on due time as it occured historically ?

Would it be possible to stop having Romanians as allied (the player stops having control of Romanian units in game) if for instance Bucharest is occupied by Soviets or if other objectives cannot be met on time ? I know this is science fiction and this needs a complete redesign of the game

5. Units

Your Sturmtiger seems too big compared to a standard Tiger. Am I wrong ?
WIll you have NKVD Soviet troops and elite troops like Siberians used to defend Moscow ?
Will you have ski units on both sides in winter ?
I hope you will use specific icons for lend lease aircrafts like I already saw it for the Boston. I thik about the Airacobra for instance.

Just food for thought!

[Chris10]

1. Would the player be able to decide where to strike ?

There is total strategical freedom to do whatever you feel like you wanna do but... ...the soviets will gain strenght over time ...so waiting and hanging around to much time maybe dont do much good

Let's suppose the player has to seize 15 VHs on the map anywhere he chooses during turn 1, I am the German commander for Barbarossa and I want to focus on the Northern part and seize Leningrad first, then the Centre part Moscow and I deliberately decide to be "calm" in the south as long as I seize all my 15 VHs in the Northern and Centre part of the front. Would it be possible ?

Well..since this is the overall War in the East there are objectives on the map in order to achive victory. I dont know the exact number right now but its over 50 + secondary objects.
You dont have a fixed number of VH to seize during turn 1...just launch the attack and decide what to do and where to go

2. Ergonomics
My dream is to have this huge map but will it be easy for a player to locate easily where he really stands ? A short map makes map spotting/location for the player more easily, no ?

There is the minimap and the Stratmap and dont forget that the battlemap has a second level zoom which is very useful when controlling larger numbers of units. In any way it will be more difficult to maintain the overviw and in order to achieve this the player has to use both mapzooms,minimap and stratmap. Therefore its "Grand Strategy". In HoI II it was very difficult to control Germany,Italy,Japan, Romania and all other axis countrys an coordinate everything but it was huge fun too. I loved it. This will be nowhere near as difficult.

Will the introduction text for each scenario be spoken too ?

Since there will be big briefings the answer is No

Will there be a German version (for texts) ?

Once I fininsh the project I surely will be exhausted and Iam not sure If I wanna do a german version then cause its not only the briefings but there will be huge text and stuff in the library too. Da steht erstmal ein Fragezeichen...

3. Game engine
Will AI understand what to do at such a large scale ?

Does the human player understand what to do at such large scale ?... ...kidding...now serious (aber mal im Ernst)...
AFAIK the AI moves along Victory Hexes...Technically it should not matter how big the map is then. I placed the victory hexes like a string of pearls in order to guide the AI and pave the way so I assume it will work...
and there are some AI improvements announced for AK...thats why Iam going to wait for it.

4. Gameplay
I am a bad player and I like cheating, I suppose I could still use the cheat keys to have max of prestige.

The console is obviously working as usual but it will take a lot of the whole concept away. The war in the east was an attrition war. With infinite prestige it will be a cakewalk in the park

I understood the unique units will appear once but I hope the player will still be able to purchase standard units ?

Only when reaching a minimum number of units. Dont forget that the commanders could not order simply more forces...they got assigned form OKH and the Wehrmacht was never stronger as on Barbarossa. There is more than 60 additional units coming as reinforcements during the game and the player has to bother more about maintaining and upgrading his army to new equipment or withdraw weakend units into the rear (attenion plane range is dramatically increased) in order to rebuild the unit when prestige.

Will he be able to purchase Waffen SS units or will they be only given in a limited nr as extra units on due time as it occured historically ?

These units are all NOPURCHASE and will be given.
The entire concept of Panzercorps East is building on the premise to manage the war with the given army. Thats what it was all about.
With infinite prestige and infinite purchase ability the game would not even remotely reflect the historical situation.

Would it be possible to stop having Romanians as allied (the player stops having control of Romanian units in game) if for instance Bucharest is occupied by Soviets or if other objectives cannot be met on time ?

I requested a while ago that countrys may switch alliance by scripted conditions so Iam curious what comes with Africa Korps...technically its a nobrainer to implement

5. Units
Your Sturmtiger seems too big compared to a standard Tiger. Am I wrong ?

You are right but Pumas unit was to small and I made it to big. It will be correct size on release

WIll you have NKVD Soviet troops and elite troops like Siberians used to defend Moscow ?

There will be some special soviet units but no NKVD in particular.

Will you have ski units on both sides in winter ?

Well..the engine does not simulate weather periods..only turn snow,sunny,cloudy,rain etc
If Africa Koprs fixes the 0 based indexes then new terrain and movement types can be added. The question however is if the AI will be able to use modded movement types in a tactical manner...the answer is simply No
The Finns however will have at least one Ski Division

I hope you will use specific icons for lend lease aircrafts like I already saw it for the Boston. I thik about the Airacobra for instance.

The soviet lend lease units are all done..only the B-25 is missing but Bebro is on it and Iam confident it will be there.

[RobertCL]

Thx for your detailed answers!

Precision: I do not use 50.000 prestige points.
Usually I take 6.000 points just for safety reasons, just to be able to give elite reinforcements to all my units and to be able to puchase all possible units allowed by the pre-defined limited nr of core units in game. Nothing more (even if this helps a lot!).

I also let units gaining their stars (experience) on their own.
I usually play at Leutnant level.

Last question: for your huge map, despite the presence of strategical map, would it be an advantage to use a large screen like a 27 inches or to use dual screen mode ?

NB: NKVD troops were certainly present at Stalingrad, they deserve to be there

And I am not German, the German text was for German friends and to increase realism, English is fine for me!