The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

[SimonLancaster]

I understand how people become frustrated with the RNG (and other macro/micro game mechanics). I have played in over 600 games now since FOGII came out and there are indeed maybe 4-6 games I vividly recall where extreme outlier results won me/cost me the game...or so I believe....I remind myself that that a RNG roll was actually the culminating event in a series of my choices that led to the roll in the first place...maybe the game was lost/won there? No matter, I am at peace with the RNG because FOGII is meant to be neither Chess nor GO. Just as in my work life where I need to make a 2021 Profit/loss projection in a highly uncertain Covid-19 environment, FOGII is about skill given uncertainty.

The same players defeat me in 1200 and 1600 point games. They will continue to do so until my skill improves. They will continue to win until my vision of the battlefield (what I choose to include in my list and how I choose to place my troops) is as good or better than they. They will continue to do so until I can adjust my game plan to reflect the facts on the field when I see their disposition; they will continue to do so until I refuse to do what they want and make them do what I want; they will continue to do so until I insist on engaging with better match ups; they will continue to do so until I learn how to fight with lancers, bows and everything else other than superior impact foot; they will continue to do so until I master defending my flanks vs. swarm armies; they will continue to do so until I master how to use ZOC to frustrate my opponents; they will continue to do so....and the the list can grow and grow to include all the parts of this game that make it so deep and engaging. If there is one thing I have learned losing to the top players is that they minimize their risk, maximize their opponent's risk, and keep reserves handy for the unexpected.

The RNG is by definition something we cant control and we are all subject to its whims. What I focus is on is improving the skill I bring to field.

Good post from nyczar!

[kronenblatt]

I understand how people become frustrated with the RNG (and other macro/micro game mechanics). I have played in over 600 games now since FOGII came out and there are indeed maybe 4-6 games I vividly recall where extreme outlier results won me/cost me the game...or so I believe....I remind myself that that a RNG roll was actually the culminating event in a series of my choices that led to the roll in the first place...maybe the game was lost/won there? No matter, I am at peace with the RNG because FOGII is meant to be neither Chess nor GO. Just as in my work life where I need to make a 2021 Profit/loss projection in a highly uncertain Covid-19 environment, FOGII is about skill given uncertainty.

The same players defeat me in 1200 and 1600 point games. They will continue to do so until my skill improves. They will continue to win until my vision of the battlefield (what I choose to include in my list and how I choose to place my troops) is as good or better than they. They will continue to do so until I can adjust my game plan to reflect the facts on the field when I see their disposition; they will continue to do so until I refuse to do what they want and make them do what I want; they will continue to do so until I insist on engaging with better match ups; they will continue to do so until I learn how to fight with lancers, bows and everything else other than superior impact foot; they will continue to do so until I master defending my flanks vs. swarm armies; they will continue to do so until I master how to use ZOC to frustrate my opponents; they will continue to do so....and the the list can grow and grow to include all the parts of this game that make it so deep and engaging. If there is one thing I have learned losing to the top players is that they minimize their risk, maximize their opponent's risk, and keep reserves handy for the unexpected.

The RNG is by definition something we cant control and we are all subject to its whims. What I focus is on is improving the skill I bring to field.

Good post from nyczar!

Fully agree! Especially the parts of:

"... they will continue to do so until I refuse to do what they want and make them do what I want..."


and

"... top players ... [ ].. minimize their risk, maximize their opponent's risk, and keep reserves handy for the unexpected..."

[SimonLancaster]

I have enjoyed playing in the Digital League but it does go on and our division (Div D, Classical) has been completely messed up by elraven leaving. Challenge1 will now get the automatic 4 points to win the division in his last game by 1 point over me. It leaves a very bitter taste in the mouth. All my energies wasted!

Obviously, people have lives and things do happen. We don't know what has gone on with elraven or someone like herm. But, it does beg the question - how often is this going to happen? I mean including registration (I think in mid May) this Digital League will probably finish by the end of July or a little earlier - that is a whole two months or more that someone has to commit to playing. Can people always plan ahead so far? Is it just bad this season and it hasn't happened before like this?

[Ludendorf]

Hmm...

I wonder if it might be fairer to just disregard all matches against disappearing people in the future. One person having to fight a tough fight against an opponent only for the other seven to get the match for free is a bit questionable. Yes, it sucks if you win the match and then have your four points taken away from you. But that isn't likely to decide the tournament, unlike a situation where you lose against a tough player who then goes absentee, and your opponents get a free ride from not having to fight them. If you win and then lose the points, you can make up for that by winning your remaining matches. Once you're down those four points, you're down permanently, and the situation is even more infuriating if it was a 3-1 victory for you.

Another approach could be to just award all other players the four points regardless of past results and have the absentee player score zero for the season. (Or just not score for the season.)

[MikeC_81]

Might want to plug this in the DL forum so Pete can see it.

[SimonLancaster]

In our division elrawen and Challenge1 are good players. They both could have won the division. I think elrawen was undefeated with two games left to play when he suddenly disappeared. Unfortunately for me, Challenge1 hadn't played him yet. It was just the worst outcome. If elrawen or Challenge1 had fought and won the division then you say well done.. when it becomes so messy after such a long period of fighting and playing it really feels crappy.

[rbodleyscott]

Might want to plug this in the DL forum so Pete can see it.

Thread moved. It probably ought to be in the Rally Point, but if so, Pete can move it.

[stockwellpete]

I have enjoyed playing in the Digital League but it does go on and our division (Div D, Classical) has been completely messed up by elraven leaving. Challenge1 will now get the automatic 4 points to win the division in his last game by 1 point over me. It leaves a very bitter taste in the mouth. All my energies wasted!

Going unbeaten the whole season and finishing second will almost certainly get you promoted to Division C next season.

Obviously, people have lives and things do happen. We don't know what has gone on with elraven or someone like herm. But, it does beg the question - how often is this going to happen? I mean including registration (I think in mid May) this Digital League will probably finish by the end of July or a little earlier - that is a whole two months or more that someone has to commit to playing. Can people always plan ahead so far? Is it just bad this season and it hasn't happened before like this?

It happens 2 or 3 times a season I would say, but I think this is the first time it has affected a promotion battle. Usually the player going AWOL has lost far more matches than they have won so it is much more likely that the bottom of the table is affected. FOG2DL seasons are always 10 weeks long. This season is actually 10 weeks and 6 days long plus there was about 14 days for recruitment (I do need this time to set everything up properly), so overall the whole process is about 3 months long.

My own view is that we have very few problems overall. We have a solid core of players who know what the drill is and most of the players joining for the first time each season quickly get the hang of things. I was expecting a bit more volatility this season what with the pandemic affecting everybody's lives. I see no reason to change anything as we have a robust system that can cope with most eventualities.

[rbodleyscott]

My own view is that we have very few problems overall. We have a solid core of players who know what the drill is and most of the players joining for the first time each season quickly get the hang of things. I was expecting a bit more volatility this season what with the pandemic affecting everybody's lives. I see no reason to change anything as we have a robust system that can cope with most eventualities.

Agreed.

It's a pity we can't have mirror matches, but there are good reasons why that would not be feasible for this particular tournament format.

[stockwellpete]

Hmm...

I wonder if it might be fairer to just disregard all matches against disappearing people in the future. One person having to fight a tough fight against an opponent only for the other seven to get the match for free is a bit questionable. Yes, it sucks if you win the match and then have your four points taken away from you. But that isn't likely to decide the tournament, unlike a situation where you lose against a tough player who then goes absentee, and your opponents get a free ride from not having to fight them. If you win and then lose the points, you can make up for that by winning your remaining matches. Once you're down those four points, you're down permanently, and the situation is even more infuriating if it was a 3-1 victory for you.

Another approach could be to just award all other players the four points regardless of past results and have the absentee player score zero for the season. (Or just not score for the season.)

It wouldn't be 7 players getting the points because players not completing 3 matches before going AWOL have their records completely expunged (and a reserve is brought in). The "elrawen situation" is quite rare because he was very near the top of the table and had played 7 out of 9 his matches. To disregard all those results now seems a much bigger distortion to me than just awarding his 2 un-played matches to his opponents. And giving him no points for the season would completely distort the relegation battle, which is just as important as the battle for promotion as far as I am concerned.

[devoncop]

Hmm...

I wonder if it might be fairer to just disregard all matches against disappearing people in the future. One person having to fight a tough fight against an opponent only for the other seven to get the match for free is a bit questionable. Yes, it sucks if you win the match and then have your four points taken away from you. But that isn't likely to decide the tournament, unlike a situation where you lose against a tough player who then goes absentee, and your opponents get a free ride from not having to fight them. If you win and then lose the points, you can make up for that by winning your remaining matches. Once you're down those four points, you're down permanently, and the situation is even more infuriating if it was a 3-1 victory for you.

Another approach could be to just award all other players the four points regardless of past results and have the absentee player score zero for the season. (Or just not score for the season.)

It wouldn't be 7 players getting the points because players not completing 3 matches before going AWOL have their records completely expunged (and a reserve is brought in). The "elrawen situation" is quite rare because he was very near the top of the table and had played 7 out of 9 his matches. To disregard all those results now seems a much bigger distortion to me than just awarding his 2 un-played matches to his opponents. And giving him no points for the season would completely distort the relegation battle, which is just as important as the battle for promotion as far as I am concerned.

All good points though not sure how relegation would be affected as Elrawen is disqualified due to his behaviour from competing next season isn't he ?

[stockwellpete]

All good points though not sure how relegation would be affected as Elrawen is disqualified due to his behaviour from competing next season isn't he ?

Yes, elrawen will definitely not be playing next season. But if we were to take all his points away now (there is no provision in the rules to do this) then he would finish in the automatic relegation place and, consequently, a different player losing 8 matches and getting just the 4 points from the awarded match would not be automatically relegated because they would finish ninth. They might still be subject to discretionary relegation next season but that would very much depend on which players (and how many) registered for that section next time.

[MikeC_81]

I have no skin in the game but logically, you can just put him in the memory hole and pretend that he never existed. It would be a 9 man division and no one gets penalized. The worst player gets relegated and the best player gets promoted.

No distortion takes place since each game is independent of each other

[SimonLancaster]

The key point as I see it is whether the games that elrawen didn't play are voided or not... logically, you would think that it would either go one way or another - all his games are voided whether played or not or all the players in the division get the automatic 4 points whether played or not.

Obviously, I am upset because he really screwed me over but I probably think that as things stand, giving the automatic 4 points only to players who haven't played him yet really messes up everything completely.

There isn't an easy answer but surely if everyone gets the 4 points or everyone gets 0 points from the elrawen games then he has not affected the division as he has done as things stand?

[devoncop]

The key point as I see it is whether the games that elrawen didn't play are voided or not... logically, you would think that it would either go one way or another - all his games are voided whether played or not or all the players in the division get the automatic 4 points whether played or not.

Obviously, I am upset because he really screwed me over but I probably think that as things stand, giving the automatic 4 points only to players who haven't played him yet really messes up everything completely.

There isn't an easy answer but surely if everyone gets the 4 points or everyone gets 0 points from the elrawen games then he has not affected the division as he has done as things stand?

That does indeed make perfect sense in isolation and to me at least would be an ideal solution to such situations in the future.

The problem Pete has I guess is that the rules of the League are very clear and as they are at the moment there is no way to resolve matters under those rules that results in what you suggest and the decision to award 4pts to those who have not played him is in fact completely in accordance with the rules we alll signed up to.

As an aside I also played against him early on in Biblical Div B and lost and have just seen three other players who could well also have lost to him awarded 4 points and given my pretty shambolic performance in that Division it could well have resulted in my automatic relegation had things been only very slightly different.

I accept the "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" much as I do the wonderful vagaries of RNG.

It makes life much simpler

[pantherboy]

I concur with MikeC_8. When handling the LOEG I simply voided all results and removed the player from the group. In this way it has no impact on relegation or promotion for those that played out all their matches. In the case of Elrawen you could still tabulate his matches awarding unplayed games as losses for determining his player rating and make a note that if he does return to place him in a division appropriate to his ability.

[General Shapur]

Why not just get a substitute player to cover his games. I'm almost done with mine and would be happy to stand in for his unplayed matches.

[stockwellpete]

I concur with MikeC_8. When handling the LOEG I simply voided all results and removed the player from the group. In this way it has no impact on relegation or promotion for those that played out all their matches. In the case of Elrawen you could still tabulate his matches awarding unplayed games as losses for determining his player rating and make a note that if he does return to place him in a division appropriate to his ability.

Sorry, but I don't like this solution at all. Not one bit, in fact. You used to do this in LOEG at the end of the season so players would have to wait until then (often many weeks) to have the league tables corrected. I appreciate that you probably had less organising time than I have right now and that your major inputs were at the beginning and end of the tournament. I operate rather differently and I much prefer to keep the tables up to date as we go along so players know their current standings as they are playing their next match. The only reason this is being discussed now is because, for the first time ever I believe, the top of the table has been affected. Normally it is the other end of the table where there may be significant changes when someone goes AWOL, but there has never been any comment about that. It suggests to me that some of you may regard the fortunes of players at the top of the table as being more important in the tournament than players at the bottom. I do not share that view.

If we were to move to a situation where every player who did not complete their 9 matches in a division was to have all their results stripped out at the end of the season then quite a lot of divisions would be affected. This season we have already lost herm, gioe07 and elrawen and we have MadMaxBot out there somewhere in a world of his own playing very inconsistently (he is not going to finish all his matches at his current speed). There may be 1 or 2 other players who are currently playing very slowly who do not finish their matches as well. So if you add all this up it means that nearly half of the 21 divisions that are running this season would be affected by a major readjustment at the end of the season. And these adjustments would not be universally popular as some players would be losing hard fought wins and the points they thought they had won. Players would also not know if the results of their matches against the slower players would stand and they would be waiting to see if so-and-so player finished their last matches in the final few days of the tournament so that all the results in a division would stand. For me, all this new uncertainty would be a very big negative and I wouldn't wish to organise a tournament on this basis.

[Macedonczyk]

I think that those who not finished game with Elvren should get 3 points instead of 4 (especially if they haven't started the game yet - this is my case too). It would be a bit fairer (and similar to BYE from slitherine tournaments).

[schmolywar]

Should there be a rule against pure horse armies in the tournament?`SInce one side has to win decisively and not just by percentages, playing against a 100 percent horse army is meaningless as they have to run around in circles to get on their opponents flank. Anyone playing against them will avoid that and so it becomes a dead end. My current opponent has done exactly this.