The Dustbin

[Rob123]

Division D

Rob123 (Roman 379-424AD with Armenian 253-476AD allies) challenges ggarynorman (Palmyran 258-273AD)

PW norman
PM sent

[bomber23]

Div D

Challenges for:

Rob 123
Bluefin
ggarynorman

password 1234

[bomber23]

Challenge for"

Rob 123
Bluefin
Doyley50

password 1234

[DanZanzibar]

Also for Pete:
My question is about promotion in the lower divisions, E and F, where it was largely made up of new players randomly (I assume) assigned to either division. It may be easiest to explain my question as a specific example... and you'll see my motivation for it too.

If I were to win CA Div F, is there a possibility of playing in Div D next season? As I was randomly give Div E in other sections, are those the only ones I could be promoted to Div D in?

I think it is likely that there will be fewer players next season as Season 8 is really "The Class of Covid" where lots of people were locked down at the beginning of it. I think you are probably looking at Division C next season if you maintain your form. When I have a large batch of new players who I know nothing about I put them in the lowest divisions and just watch what happens. There are always a few players who stand out and they are then fast-tracked. Macedonczyk is an example from last season who went up more than one division.

I think there's a wave of players that, like myself, got turned onto the game because of FOG:Empires being featured on Steam. I can't remember if it was on sale or just promoted, but I started played Empires as an old Civ/Total War fan and it took a couple of months before I realized that FOG2 was the real gem. Also, having played a lot of the new players, I expect a large number of them to stick around. We'll see what happens but I don't think your job is going to slow down too much Pete (thanks so much by the way for keeping this league going - it's the most fun I've had in war gaming, period).

I should be clear that I wasn't asking the question because I felt that I didn't belong in the lower divisions. I have had great games throughout this season and have barely edged a number of opponents. It has been a lot of fun and very challenging. It's just that part of the fun is trying to climb the ladder and I was curious how the league handles promotion. It seems from your answer that there is a lot of room for discretion from the organizers... and that sounds like a good set up.

If I might suggest, it would be kind of cool to have a completely structured promotion/relegation system. I have a few ideas and please let me know what you think Pete!

Suggestion #1 - What if all divisions that new players may be put in get special treatment - say Div E and F as in this last season's case. Let's instead call them the New Player Divisions: 1, 2, 3, etc.? First off, all players - new and existing - that play in these divisions would have to be randomly assigned (and there would be existing players in here in all but the most unlikely scenarios). All New Player Divisions now give the same points to players for player ratings, and winners from both divisions go to Div D. Div D also then relegates 2 players or more depending on the number of New Player Divisions.

If there were the same number of New Player Divisions the next season then it's straight forward what to do. But let's address the two other possibilities.

a) There are now enough existing players from the previous season to have Divisions A-E filled entirely with them. I would suggest that Div E would be made up of the relegated Div D players plus the highest rated players from the remaining list of players from last season (this is why it would be important for all New Player Divisions to have the same point allocation to player ratings). What I like about this is that even if you don't get promoted by winning a division, there is a route to promotion given the addition of a new non-new-player-division (apologies if that's confusing) and a generally good record.

b) There are now not enough existing players to fill Division A - D. Now new players must be admitted to "D" and lower divisions... making them all New Player Divisions. What this means is that those who won promotion have effectively lost it. I don't really mind this though, as if they win out this season, they will move up one higher division then they would have been playing in this season.

Suggestion #2 - What if (besides organizer discretion) the second place player can earn promotion... and by extension the second last placed player can be relegated. I think the simplest solution would be to have a point differential required for the second place player to earn promotion over the second last place player from the higher division. For example... if the second place player from Div C has greater than a 25 point advantage vs. the second last place player from Div B, then promotion/relegation occurs between these two players.

What I really like about a system like this is the excitement it brings to matches near the end of the season, perhaps when 1st place is already sorted out. As it is now, these promotions may still occur... but because they are shrouded in mystery until after the season is over, the excitement/intensity of the final matches is largely wasted.

Anyway, curious to hear what you have to say about this Pete. I would be willing to handle a portion of the administrative responsibilities of the tournament if it helps!

[Morat]

Division F

Morat (Romans and Greeks) beat hyme (Saka) 60-38.

A rolling brawl where the Roman skirmishers managed to hold onto the horsearchers for long enough for the infantry and elephants to get stuck in.

Thanks for the battle, hyme.

M.

[stockwellpete]

I don't think there is any need to change the way the divisions are formed, Dan.

A more structured approach would not work for the very simple reason that the proportion of players returning from one season to the next varies enormously. Sometimes I will lose half of an A division and I end up having to promote 3 or 4 players from the B division and fast-tracking 1 from the C division. Sometimes a group of 3-4 A-rated players will apply to enter an A division which they had not entered the season before and then I have to consider discretionary relegations to fit them all in. This sort of thing can happen in B, C and D divisions as well. The other unknowable factor is how many new players will sign up each season. Sometimes it is 9 or 10, this season it was 20+. So I will always need a great deal of flexibility to manage these variations and I also use the FOG2DL player ratings to decide any "tie-breaks" that I might have.

In terms of the lack of intensity/excitement in matches that are played after the division has already been won, I would say that players in the lower divisions (B-F) should continue fighting hard for second and third places as there is a reasonable chance of moving up a division in the next season (players in fourth and fifth places have occasionally moved up as well). And, of course, player rating points are still up for grabs in these matches and every win helps you move up the player rating list. This might also help you move up the league if you subsequently get involved in a "tiebreaker" situation when I am forming up the divisions in a subsequent season.

[stockwellpete]

The second Time Control Check is tomorrow. Players are required to have completed 3 matches in each section they have entered at what is the half-way stage of the tournament. Just looking at the league tables yesterday the situation seems to be very good. There are a few players who have only registered 2 results in some sections and I will be contacting them today. We have 2 players who are almost certainly AWOL now, but they have played 3 matches or more in the divisions they have entered so their results will stand. There are 2 other players who seem to be very slow and I will check with them to see if they can speed up a bit.

[random27]

(I would say that players in the lower divisions (B-F) should continue fighting hard for second and third places as there is a reasonable chance of moving up a division in the next season)
I like it ; i thought only the first would be promotes and i'm not so far of these places in all my divisions , so i hope to be promoted , i will fight hard for that

[kraff]

Division E

kraff (Seleucid 124-63 BC) defeated Aetius39 (Macedonian 328-321 BC) 62-45

A very tough fight for the Seleucids. There was a moment they were losing 23-4. Resilience of their heavy infantry and cataphracts bought them precious time and allowed to make a few crucial flanking maneuvers. That, with one lucky rear charge by cataphracts, turned the tables.

Thank you very much for the battle, Aetius39!

[stockwellpete]

(I would say that players in the lower divisions (B-F) should continue fighting hard for second and third places as there is a reasonable chance of moving up a division in the next season)
I like it ; i thought only the first would be promotes and i'm not so far of these places in all my divisions , so i hope to be promoted , i will fight hard for that

The player who comes top is automatically promoted and the player who comes bottom is automatically relegated. There are no exceptions to this. But because not everyone enters the following season there are always places to be filled by discretionary promotions or relegations.

[Doyley50]

Division D

Doyley50 (Anglo Danish 1017-1049) defeated ggarynorman ( Byzantine 963-987) 64-48.

[DanZanzibar]

I don't think there is any need to change the way the divisions are formed, Dan.

A more structured approach would not work for the very simple reason that the proportion of players returning from one season to the next varies enormously. Sometimes I will lose half of an A division and I end up having to promote 3 or 4 players from the B division and fast-tracking 1 from the C division. Sometimes a group of 3-4 A-rated players will apply to enter an A division which they had not entered the season before and then I have to consider discretionary relegations to fit them all in. This sort of thing can happen in B, C and D divisions as well. The other unknowable factor is how many new players will sign up each season. Sometimes it is 9 or 10, this season it was 20+. So I will always need a great deal of flexibility to manage these variations and I also use the FOG2DL player ratings to decide any "tie-breaks" that I might have.

In terms of the lack of intensity/excitement in matches that are played after the division has already been won, I would say that players in the lower divisions (B-F) should continue fighting hard for second and third places as there is a reasonable chance of moving up a division in the next season (players in fourth and fifth places have occasionally moved up as well). And, of course, player rating points are still up for grabs in these matches and every win helps you move up the player rating list. This might also help you move up the league if you subsequently get involved in a "tiebreaker" situation when I am forming up the divisions in a subsequent season.

Fair enough - I guess I thought there was more returning players season-to-season. random27's comments and mine show the perspective of probably more than a few new players. What you've said here Pete might make a nice addendum to the player's guide so folks understand the significance of finishing 2nd, 3rd, even 4th place.

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

[Challenge1]

Division C

Challenge1 - Arab Conquest 638-684 AD defeated Questar17 - Norman 923-1040 AD 48 - 19

A much tougher battle than the score suggests. The Arab army had to manouevre their forces considerably to avoid the heavily armoured Norman spears and managed to delay the intervention of the Norman right long enough to take out the defensive shieldwall and numerically inferior cavalry on the Norman left.

Thanks Questar a well fought battle.

Iain

[baldrick52]

Division E

baldrick52 - Indo-Parthian 60 BC-30 AD beats rs2excelsior - Ptolemaic 55-30 BC 51-24

[Aetius39]

Division E

Aetius39 - Macedonian 328-321 BC defeats baldrick52 - Indo-Parthian 60 BC-30 AD 55-24

The Parthians had a major advantage in maneuverability over the Macedonians, so the first half of the battle was posturing on both sides; the Macedonians trying to shorten the flanks, while the Parthians looked for holes to poke through. The battle started slowly but ended with almost all units involved in heavy fighting. The Macedonians managed to keep flanking to a minimum while their Pikes gnawed away at the cataphracts, ultimately ending in victory for the Macedonians, but it was far from certain until the very end. GG to my opponent he played well!

[stockwellpete]

Fair enough - I guess I thought there was more returning players season-to-season. random27's comments and mine show the perspective of probably more than a few new players. What you've said here Pete might make a nice addendum to the player's guide so folks understand the significance of finishing 2nd, 3rd, even 4th place.

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

Yes, OK. I will update the Guide for next season.

[pantherboy]

Division A

pantherboy (Dailami) defeats harveylh (Andalusians) 61-50

(3-1)

[Bluefin]

Division D

Bluefin (Syracuse) defeats elrawen (Macedonian) due to match abandoned by opponent.

(4-0)

[Nosy_Rat]

Division A

Nosy_Rat (Huns) draws with XLegione (Romans) 35-21.

(2-0)

[sunnyboy]

Div B
sunnyboy - Syracusan 550-461 BC with Kyrenean Greek 630-461 allies challenges elrawen - Kyrenean Greek 630-461 BC
PW - elrawen