Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

[deducter]

I'm trying to get it out by next week, but no promises. I'm still going over a lot of things from the earlier years, especially 1944, where I have made significant tweaks.

[ivanov]

Sounds good. I am not expecting the full change log, but I hope the most important change list will be included ( it can be even only posted in this thread ).

[deducter]

A preview of the recon changes. I changed the AI's units too. One consequence of this change is that recon units are much more resistant to attack by AT guns.

Germany
1. Recon units completely redesigned and split into two subclasses: dedicated recon units and combat recon units.

i. Most recon units changed from HARD to SOFT targets. The exceptions are the Panzer II Luchs and the Soviet T-60/T-70 tanks.

ii. GD and AD of all recon units increased.

iii. Since recon units are now harder to kill, their price has been increased significantly.
2. Wheeled recon units movement +2.
3. Dedicated recon units have higher GD and spotting = 4, but they have very low CD and ammo. They are meant to serve as scouts and can survive an encounter with several enemy tanks, but should not be used for combat duty. Some exceptions for Allied and Soviet equipment apply

i. Stats
Sdkfz 222 cost = 290 ammo = 3 spotting = 4 INI = 4 SA = 2 HA = 4 GD = 10 AD = 10 CD = 0
Sdkfz 232 8Rad cost = 363 ammo = 3 spotting = 4 INI = 4 SA = 2 HA = 5 GD = 10 AD = 10 CD = 0
Sdkfz 234/1 8Rad cost = 435 ammo = 3 spotting = 4 INI = 4 SA = 2 HA = 5 GD = 14 AD = 13 CD = 0

4. Combat recon units have more ammo and higher CD, and some models have excellent firepower, but they do not have an increase to spotting and have lower GD. They are better suited to

i. Stats
Sdkfz 231 6Rad cost = 261 ammo = 6 spotting = 3 INI = 4 SA = 2 HA = 4 GD = 8 AD = 10 CD = 2
Sdkfz 233 8Rad cost = 406 ammo = 6 spotting = 3 INI = 6 SA = 8 HA = 7 GD = 8 AD = 10 CD = 2
Sdkfz 234/2 8Rad cost = 464 ammo = 6 spotting = 3 INI = 8 SA = 5 HA = 11 GD = 11 AD = 12 CD = 2
Panzer II Luchs cost= 306 ammo = 7 spotting = 3 INI = 6 SA = 5 HA = 8 GD = 12 AD = 10 CD = 2

5. In 1943, all older recon units receive GD +2, AD +1 to help with survivability. Newer models already have this defense buff incorporated.
6. German recon unit summary
i. Dedicated recon units are more effective at performing reconnaissance because of their increased spotting. They also have higher defenses, so it is safer to send them out ahead to scout. However, they have very poor combat capabilities, and if caught in close terrain are extremely vulnerable to attack by infantry. Combat recon units are better suited to taking advantage of tactical opportunities and can engage in combat more frequently without having to resupply. They are somewhat less vulnerable in close terrain, but are more vulnerable to attack in the open. It is best to keep them close to supporting units.

[deducter]

I can't decide whether to disable the Ta 152, the Do 335, and the He 162 or not for 1945. Thoughts?

[ivanov]

First of all, I think that the changes of the recon look very promising - now they need to be tested under the enemy fire

As to the 1945 low series equipment, I'd leave the Ta 152. It makes sense IMO, because the plane was a FW 190 direct descendants, so I don't think why it couldn't enter the mass production ( of course it didn't due to the wars end ). The Do 335, and the He 162 can be disabled with a clear clear consciousness

[deducter]

I was just blasting through GC39 on Rommel with my latest changes, and check out this screenshot:
http://i.imgur.com/uaC6P.jpg

The outcome of Hurricane vs Bf 110 works very well. Best of all is that the AI attacked me outright.

[Radoye]

I can't decide whether to disable the Ta 152, the Do 335, and the He 162 or not for 1945. Thoughts?

He 162 was the most produced of these three, and would be mass produced if the war continued. I'd leave that one in.

Ta 152 and Do 335 should have their availability pushed back to mid-May 45. Not available in historical scenarios but present in "what-if's" where Germany was more successful than historically.

[ivanov]

The thing is, that none of those planes was actually mass produced. My reasoning was, that the T 152 was probably the simplest, less advanced and most reliable - hence the easiest, to potentially mass produce. Also, out of the three models, it would look less science fiction in the table of the equipment

[Radoye]

There was more than 300 He 162's series machines produced and a full scale production line was set up but it was overran by the Allies before it went online. That plane is no science fiction, it was deployed to operational units just before the end of the war and been used in action in the last month of the war. Had Germany's war fortunes went differently have no doubt He 162 would be produced in thousands.

Ta 152 and Do 335 were produced only in a few dozen pre-series and prototype examples.

I agree it would be easiest to re-tool for Ta 152 given its family ties with Fw 190D-series. It was however still a bit away from full scale production as the war ended, however the examples which were produced have reached operational units at the very end of 1944.

Do 335 would most likely not go into full scale production before late 1945.

[ivanov]

Because I am a man of compromise, I could agree for the He 162 too The Do 335 definitely not - the plane was untested and would probably give a lot of troubles before entering the service.

[deducter]

A preview of the manual for 1943 German AFVs. The entire manual is written in MS Word, and using that program to view it will give better formatting. The whole thing will probably run ~40 pages of text, for anyone who is interested in reading about all the changes.

1. Most models of Panzer III and Panzer IV cost reduced by 15-25% in 1943 compared with 1942. The costs for the Panzer IIIN (a dedicated close terrain vehicle) and the Panzer IVH (a new model) are unchanged.

2. All Panzer IIIs, except for the Panzer IIIN, buffed with HA +1 to encourage their continued use. Panzer IIIL and Panzer IIIM CD +1. Nevertheless, by 1943 the Panzer III is an obsolete tank with no upgrade potential.

3. German tank guns standardized.

i. The guns mounted on German AFVs and their stats are given below.
7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 INI = 8 HA = 14 (Panzer IVF/2, StuG IIIF)
7.5 cm KwK 40 L/48 INI = 9 HA = 16 (Panzer IVG, Panzer IVH, Panzer IVJ, StuG IIIF/8, StuG IIIG, StuG IV)
7.5 cm PaK 39 L/48 INI = 9 HA = 15 (Jagdpanzer IV/48, Hetzer)
7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70 INI = 12 HA = 20 (Panther, Jagdpanzer IV/70(V))
8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56 INI = 11 HA = 19 (88 FlaK in AT mode, Tiger I)
8.8 cm KwK 43 L/71 INI = 14 HA = 24 (Hornisse, Ferdinand)
12.8 cm PaK 44 L/55 INI = 16 HA = 26 (JagdTiger, Maus)

ii. Remember that all AT units receive +3 INI when attacked by turreted vehicle. Thus, the INI of a tank destroyer is generally 3 lower than a tank mounted with the same gun. Some exceptions (the Hornisse, the Marder series) apply for balance reasons.

4. Panzer IVG given the 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/48.

5. Panzer IVH GD +1, given the 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/48.

6. 1943 German medium tank comparison

Panzer IIIM cost = 381 ammo = 8 fuel = 49 INI = 8 SA = 5 HA = 12 GD = 15 AD = 12 CD = 3
Panzer IVG: cost = 408 ammo = 8 fuel = 43 INI = 9 SA = 8 HA = 16 GD = 14 AD = 12 CD = 2
Panzer IVH: cost = 486 ammo = 8 fuel = 32 INI = 9 SA = 8 HA = 16 GD = 17 AD = 13 CD = 3

7. Marder III series stats tweaked.

i. Stats
Marder IIIH cost = 264 ammo = 10 fuel = 55 INI = 7 SA = 4 HA = 14 GD = 12 AD = 10 CD = 1
Marder IIIM cost = 288 ammo = 10 fuel = 58 INI = 8 SA = 2 HA = 15 GD = 12 AD = 10 CD = 1

ii. The Marder III has excellent fuel/ammo and superior INI compared with other German tank destroyers. It was built on the P38 chassis and hence very reliable. However, it has poor SA and very poor defenses. It is relatively cheap, which makes it a somewhat disposable tank destroyer.

8. StuG IIIF and StuG IIIF/8 cost reduced.

9. StuG IIIG defenses slightly increased.

i. Stats
StuG IIIG cost = 353 INI = 6 SA = 6 HA = 16 GD = 17 AD = 14 CD = 2

ii. The StuG IIIG remains a cheap, tough tank destroyer. Its main weakness is its low INI when attacking.

10. Advanced German AFVs (Panther, Tiger, Ferdinand) mechanical unreliability modeled by reducing their ammo/fuel significantly. All of these units need to constantly stop and resupply, especially when on the offensive. During Kursk, these AFVs were usually not lost as a result of direct combat, but because of mechanical breakdown, mine damage, and other indirect causes.

11. Panther SA -2, HA +1, GD +1, AD -4, cost increased significantly.

i. Stats
Panther D cost = 1076 ammo = 4 fuel = 14 move = 6 INI = 11 SA = 6 HA = 20 GD = 19 AD = 12 CD = 3
Panther A cost = 1181 ammo = 5 fuel = 22 move = 6 INI = 12 SA = 6 HA = 20 GD = 19 AD = 12 CD = 3

ii. The Panther D has a INI -1 penalty because it was rushed into service before it was ready. The low SA simulates the fact that it was designed primarily to engage other tanks. The very low AD simulates its poor top armor, especially near its engine.

iii. The Panther A corrected some of the early mechanical defects, hence its higher ammo/fuel.

iv. Panther reliability will further increase in 1944, while its cost will decrease.

12. Tiger I HA +2, cost increased significantly.

i. Stats
Tiger I cost = 1353 ammo = 4 fuel = 15 move = 5 INI = 11 SA = 9 HA = 19 GD = 23 AD = 16 CD = 4

ii. The Tiger I is extremely tough and nearly invincible in direct combat. However, a long drive or sustained combat may prove lethal.

13. Elefant renamed the Ferdinand for 1943, move -1, SA -3, GD +3, CD +1, cost increased significantly.
i. Stats
Ferdinand cost = 1320 ammo = 4 fuel = 9 move = 3 INI = 11 SA = 2 HA = 24 GD = 25 AD = 17 CD = 3

ii. The Ferdinand is the ultimate tank destroyer, provided it can actually get near an enemy tank. No Soviet AFV in 1943 with the exception of the SU-152 or ISU-152 is close to a match against it. This unit is useless against enemy infantry or any other soft target has almost no mobility. It can be very useful defensively.

iii. The Ferdinand will be renamed the Elefant and is automatically upgraded with better SA and ammo/fuel in 1944.

14. The Ferdinand can only be purchased at the beginning of Kursk, on July 5, 1943. It is unavailable on July 6. There are no other opportunities ever during the war to buy them. Historically only two battalions of these tank destroyers were ever built.

15. Nashorn renamed Hornisse, ammo +1, INI +2.

i. Stats
Hornisse cost = 467 ammo = 7 fuel = 50 move = 5 INI = 12 SA = 3 HA = 24 GD = 8 AD = 8 CD = 1

ii. Historically the Hornisse was an effective tank destroyer built on the Panzer III chassis, and because of this it was much more reliable than Tiger and Panther tanks. This unit can be very effective with its relatively low cost and extremely powerful gun, as long as it is employed correctly. It performs best in open terrain against Soviet medium tanks. It is fast and has decent ammo/fuel. However, it has very low defenses, and it is vulnerable to infantry and bomber attacks. It is also useless in close terrain and during bad weather.

16. 1943 German AFV Summary
There is a huge increase in the families of AFVs the German player can field in 1943. Every unit is designed to have a niche.

The Panzer III is becoming increasingly obsolete, but a veteran crew can still take on many Soviet tanks with good success. The Panzer IVG and the Panzer IVH have enough firepower to take on any Soviet medium tank, although they are outmatched by Soviet heavy tanks such as the KV-85 and the IS-1.

The StuG IIIG is a cheap, tough, and powerful tank destroyer especially suited for defense, although it has relatively low INI when attacking. The Marder II and the Marder III are even cheaper and have good INI, but they have lower attack and much lower defenses. The Hornisse should now be more viable, because it has amazing HA and INI, allowing it destroy most Soviet tanks in the clear before they can return fire.

The Panther is a tank beset by mechanical trouble in 1943. “Ready” in time for Kursk, it combines good mobility and firepower, as long as its engine doesn’t break down. It is still a good idea to incorporate some Panthers into the player’s core so their crews can gain some experience. The Tiger I is also a tank beset by mechanical problem. Its high defense and amazing attack makes it a good choice to spearhead assaults or to protect the flanks. Keep in mind that even green Panthers and Tigers will crush any Soviet medium tank easily in 1943. The Elefant is the ultimate tank destroyer. No Soviet tank, not even the KV-85 or the IS-1, stands a chance against it. However, it is vulnerable to infantry and is very slow. It is difficult to use when attacking, but it is amazing on defense. Do not expect that fielding a core exclusively of these advanced German AFVs will save prestige or automatically bring victory.

[alex0809]

Sounds like great changes it feels really bland without your mod already. One question: the things stated in the manual, are most of them already in the current version which I am playing right now or are they mostly added in the upcoming version?

[deducter]

For 1943, pretty much all the changes are in. I made some small tweaks for the upcoming version, but nothing major except for recon is changed.

For 1944 and I made some bigger changes. And for 1945 there won't be too many changes compared with 1944.

[deducter]

I'm actually worried that recon units are too survivable by far, I'm almost done with Arras and neither of the AUX recon units have lost more than 2 str points. The problem is, it is really difficult to make recon units survivable without making them into a "tanking" unit.

[ivanov]

A preview of the manual for 1943 German AFVs.
(...)

In all I am familiar with those changes - I have never paid attention the the Hornisse buff. I like it, because before the vehicle seemed a little to vulnerable.

Another thing , would you be willing to buff the towed AT? Currently, they are another type of weapon which is usually missing from the players core. They only advantage over the SPAT is their lower price but maybe their CD should be increased? There were many examples of the towed AT fighting in the urban terrain and neutralizing them was never an easy task, even for the infantry. Basically, I see them more like the infantry units plentifully equipped with the AT guns, rather than guns without the infantry support. It were the towed AT that caused most of the tank loses during the WWII ( yes, I know - they wre second to the mines ).

[ivanov]

I'm actually worried that recon units are too survivable by far, I'm almost done with Arras and neither of the AUX recon units have lost more than 2 str points. The problem is, it is really difficult to make recon units survivable without making them into a "tanking" unit.

The recon units IMO shouldn't actually take high loses because due to their tactics, they would try to avoid any direct combat at all cost ( what is represented by their high survivability in you mod ).

[deducter]

I may have to increase the cost of recon units even more. The problem is when AUX recon units are provided. In the scenarios, they are meant to serve more or less as fodder, not elite units. For instance, Arras is too easy if you know what you're doing and use the provided recon units to absorb attacks.

[ivanov]

I see what you mean with the aux recon units. Have you seen my post above, regarding the towed AT?

[deducter]

I see what you mean with the aux recon units. Have you seen my post above, regarding the towed AT?

Which post about the towed AT?

I mean the current stats are okay, I'd probably just increase the price of recon units even more.

[ivanov]

I see what you mean with the aux recon units. Have you seen my post above, regarding the towed AT?

Which post about the towed AT?

I mean the current stats are okay, I'd probably just increase the price of recon units even more.

Another thing , would you be willing to buff the towed AT? Currently, they are another type of weapon which is usually missing from the players core. They only advantage over the SPAT is their lower price but maybe their CD should be increased? There were many examples of the towed AT fighting in the urban terrain and neutralizing them was never an easy task, even for the infantry. Basically, I see them more like the infantry units plentifully equipped with the AT guns, rather than guns without the infantry support. It were the towed AT that caused most of the tank loses during the WWII ( yes, I know - they wre second to the mines ).