Supermax-Moriss restart (Game stopped)

[Diplomaticus]

If you don't plan on doing major offensives in 1942, then you could always transport some troops from the Eastern Front by rail to Italy and then move them to Africa. The real game-changer would be a successful massive offensive in the south in 1942 and a simultaneous attack in Africa. If you could reach the oil fields in the Caucasus and in Iraq, then with your current PP income you could transform the Axis into a massive monster with many armoured, air and mechanised units.

Following up on my remark about sealing off the Mediterranean:
If Max could actually spare the troops (a big "if"), this would be ideal. Ideal not only because it would give him the oil + PP's to really go to town (and note every PP he'd gain would be lost by the Allies, so it's a 2-fer), but because it would mean he wouldn't be forced to use quite so much of his navy guarding the approaches to the transport loops. [Note that he'd still have to watch for Americans forcing their way through and making landings in the Red Sea/Persian Gulf.]

Let's take this one further: Moriss appears to have almost no forces left in the entire Mediterranean. We've seen the invasions he did earlier--it would be a simple matter of checking the old moves to see if any units from the Middle East were part of that. If, as I strongly suspect, he sucked out nearly all of his Egypt/Iraqi forces in order to invade France, it might not require much of an effort at all to breeze into Suez and beyond--always assuming that you can prevent him from reinforcing.

So let's imagine this: Max now has a 100% Ally-free Mediterranean. So now he wouldn't even have to garrison his coastal cities, except vs. partisans.

Is this scenario truly possible? Maybe not. Malta's a tough nut to crack (though Moriss is just the kind of guy that you might be able to sucker into leaving Malta open in search of a sneak landing), and I'm not sure that you could ever be 100% sure that you'd cleared out every single Allied unit.

And there's another problem: Maybe the Soviets rail down troops through Persia and begin to cause all kinds of problems.

What do you guys think?

[zechi]

If you don't plan on doing major offensives in 1942, then you could always transport some troops from the Eastern Front by rail to Italy and then move them to Africa. The real game-changer would be a successful massive offensive in the south in 1942 and a simultaneous attack in Africa. If you could reach the oil fields in the Caucasus and in Iraq, then with your current PP income you could transform the Axis into a massive monster with many armoured, air and mechanised units.

Following up on my remark about sealing off the Mediterranean:
If Max could actually spare the troops (a big "if"), this would be ideal. Ideal not only because it would give him the oil + PP's to really go to town (and note every PP he'd gain would be lost by the Allies, so it's a 2-fer), but because it would mean he wouldn't be forced to use quite so much of his navy guarding the approaches to the transport loops. [Note that he'd still have to watch for Americans forcing their way through and making landings in the Red Sea/Persian Gulf.]

Let's take this one further: Moriss appears to have almost no forces left in the entire Mediterranean. We've seen the invasions he did earlier--it would be a simple matter of checking the old moves to see if any units from the Middle East were part of that. If, as I strongly suspect, he sucked out nearly all of his Egypt/Iraqi forces in order to invade France, it might not require much of an effort at all to breeze into Suez and beyond--always assuming that you can prevent him from reinforcing.

So let's imagine this: Max now has a 100% Ally-free Mediterranean. So now he wouldn't even have to garrison his coastal cities, except vs. partisans.

Is this scenario truly possible? Maybe not. Malta's a tough nut to crack (though Moriss is just the kind of guy that you might be able to sucker into leaving Malta open in search of a sneak landing), and I'm not sure that you could ever be 100% sure that you'd cleared out every single Allied unit.

And there's another problem: Maybe the Soviets rail down troops through Persia and begin to cause all kinds of problems.

What do you guys think?

What do you describe is a common strategy called „close the Med“. This strategy was used in several AARs by Axis players and can be very effective. If you manage to close Med normally only the GAR on Cyprus and the GAR in Malta survive. If you are sure that no other ground units remain, you can in fact empty most Italian cities (of course Rome should have a GAR). Even if the Allied player uses the GAR from Malta/Cyprus to capture a city, this will not really matter, as you can quickly dislodge the unit with some anti-partisan units used for example in France or other occupied countries.

In the current game it would be unwise for Supermax to seal the Med. It is obvious that Morris uses the Western Allies only as a sideshow. The Med theatre does not seem to be relevant at all in this game. The game will be won or lost in the east. Every effort should be invested to hold the Soviets at bay and cripple their offensive potential.

[supermax]

Guys.

As i stated if i do anything about the MED, its because i have troops to spare.

Right now there are none. I have an incredible double line of defense grandted, but we emptied most of Europe to make it happen.

Now ive got to prepare Francr for the 1942 landing.

If after all that i can still make something happen, then i'll oblige.

Also, i am still uncertain about doing this, as like zechi said, moriss will send troops by the ton to the med if i make a move, he will be more than happy to do what he does best. Expand the western allies inro sucking up german manpower and revenue.

And if i do something it wont be a traditionnal attack thru cyreanica but more in the form of a landing in the rear to surprise moriss.

I havent posted anything happening in the med, but moriss has moved troops on almost every hexe along the coast line, mostly GAR. He also has 4 corps and 1 armor minimum.

After all, he might force me to do something in the med, i cannot permit to have tobruk fall.

[Crazygunner1]

Max

I recall in our game it was around 10-11 million losses for the russians when i dropped below 75% in manpower. It shouldn´t have changed that much since then, so you got a bit further to go i guess and most of the losses he has sustained now is only Gar in the frontline and some further inland.

I noticed that you can use rail in Russia much further east in GS v2.0 and beoynd, how far does the rail go when you are advancing in Russia?

Crazyg

[Plaid]

You can use rail with 3 supply (if still connected to rail network) so you can rail as far as Omsk, if you want (but it will take 2 turns. Maximum range for 1 rail is 40 or 50 I believe).

[Crazygunner1]

You can use rail with 3 supply (if still connected to rail network) so you can rail as far as Omsk, if you want (but it will take 2 turns. Maximum range for 1 rail is 40 or 50 I believe).

The trouble before was always you couldn´t rail back, but now you can....

[supermax]

[Cybvep]

Here comes the cavalry!

[supermax]

[amcdonel]

I agree - The Russians are too strong - this is true for excellent players as we see. The Russians are mounting counter attacks across a broad front in the winter of '41 with forces that are Germanys technical equal, For normal players like me - playing as the Axis is a really painful experience -- even though I can do very well as at the Allies.

Also in reference to Guards Units according to Wikipedia: The Guards units (Russian: Гвардия, Gvardiya) were again awarded to units and formations which distinguishing themselves in during the second world war by the order of People's Commissar for Defence of USSR No.303 on the 18 September 1941, and were considered to have elite status. However, the Guards badge was not introduced until 21 May 1943.

It seems that most Guards were created in '42 and '43...

[Plaid]

Are you sure Morris have same tech with soviets, as you with germans? In my game I have good advantage, especially in organisation.
And when I play as allies I also see germans way stronger them soviet troops, used against me.

Historically soviets tryed to be offencive on broad front in 1941, but they were not successful everywhere, so most of this offencive was short.

Morris' strategy is extreme, as he ignore air units with USSR. So if game will be balanced to fit this, it will hurt normal play (with building air force). I think its not about soviet are extra strong, but about game favour extremes.

And I don't see any great results of his attacks - no single unit destroyed or badly damaged even (fpartly it is poor execution without using forward retreat)

[Diplomaticus]

Max, your defense really has been impressive so far--it looks like you're controlling the pace of the game, forcing him to play it your way, more or less.

The one thing I saw that I don't understand was the very poor condition of your aircraft. I see on the map Tac's at 6, Fighters at 4..., what's happening to weaken the Luftwaffe so much?

[supermax]

Max, your defense really has been impressive so far--it looks like you're controlling the pace of the game, forcing him to play it your way, more or less.

The one thing I saw that I don't understand was the very poor condition of your aircraft. I see on the map Tac's at 6, Fighters at 4..., what's happening to weaken the Luftwaffe so much?

I typically dont repair them... I havent put 1 pp into them since the start of bararossa, except at the end of my last turn.

I dont like putting pp in that. I will eventually for my spring offensive.

As to the pace of the game, yes so far its going at the speed and how i want it. Moriss army is impressive, but he attacks so recklessly that more horrendous losses are waiting for him at the next turn. I will make him pay for being to agressive

So it appears that ive staved off the worst of what moriss can throw at me. But knowing him i now have to prepare for his 1942 landing. If i can ush him back into the sea, then the game is almost won.

[Crazygunner1]

Max, your defense really has been impressive so far--it looks like you're controlling the pace of the game, forcing him to play it your way, more or less.

The one thing I saw that I don't understand was the very poor condition of your aircraft. I see on the map Tac's at 6, Fighters at 4..., what's happening to weaken the Luftwaffe so much?

German production have been hard presses to support the ground troops and most of all the double defense line, so aircrafts have not been refitted. Max will probably resupply them for summer 42 when it´s offensive time again.

[supermax]

Are you sure Morris have same tech with soviets, as you with germans? In my game I have good advantage, especially in organisation.
And when I play as allies I also see germans way stronger them soviet troops, used against me.

Historically soviets tryed to be offencive on broad front in 1941, but they were not successful everywhere, so most of this offencive was short.

Morris' strategy is extreme, as he ignore air units with USSR. So if game will be balanced to fit this, it will hurt normal play (with building air force). I think its not about soviet are extra strong, but about game favour extremes.

And I don't see any great results of his attacks - no single unit destroyed or badly damaged even (fpartly it is poor execution without using forward retreat)

Well plaid, his mech troops are level 7 like me. Hs got 1 more blitzkrieg level and then some... His inf are level 4, with better attack numbers than i have, and i am barely ahead in tanks with destroyer lvl 3, he has 2 but got better blitzkrieg tech...

I actually am having dificulties to believe it hehehe

[peterjfrigate]

I don't see the problem yet.

There are only 2 Russian Guards visible on the map, which should be considered veteran Siberian units - so though not officially "guards" they represent battle hardened troops. (Maybe there are more Guards hidden by leaders?)

In the North it's a cake-walk for the Axis. Leningrad is gone and the front has almost collapsed. The center has collapsed. The only hope for Russia is the south where the initial attacks on turn 43 resulted in a loss of 37 factors on the front line for the Russians compared to 22 factors for the Axis (counting ground units only from the first screen shot of turn 43 above.) That's close to a 1:2 ratio in favor of Axis on the first turn of severe winter, and given that the line is holding, things should go downhill for the Russians as efficiency recovers. And let us keep in mind the Russians are supposed to be counterattacking!

Russian army tech might be an issue, or perhaps not if this means air has been neglected. That will really hurt over the long term.

UK's forces must be in a shambles in terms of both tech and numbers. Will there even be a strategic air campaign to worry about? Will there be any ASW to worry about?

[supermax]

Max, your defense really has been impressive so far--it looks like you're controlling the pace of the game, forcing him to play it your way, more or less.

The one thing I saw that I don't understand was the very poor condition of your aircraft. I see on the map Tac's at 6, Fighters at 4..., what's happening to weaken the Luftwaffe so much?

German production have been hard presses to support the ground troops and most of all the double defense line, so aircrafts have not been refitted. Max will probably resupply them for summer 42 when it´s offensive time again.

Yeah, and also note that i am producing fighters... I need them to survive in the west. Ill need at least 5 of them and maybee more to face the brits and the us.

[supermax]

Yeah... Well the brits should be recovering nicely since i havent got the oil to spare all my subs hunting them convoys...

As for the russians i see the odds as well. Should be a fun summer 1942.

But... The russians have stats that are not consistent with what ive played before. By this i mean that there is only 1 way to face this and its the way ive done it, behind a river, high german tech and double line. This is not possible to do in every game. Remember i have spain on my side and destroyed the french very early, and also soundly defeated the first brit landing.

I don't see the problem yet.

There are only 2 Russian Guards visible on the map, which should be considered veteran Siberian units - so though not officially "guards" they represent battle hardened troops. (Maybe there are more Guards hidden by leaders?)

In the North it's a cake-walk for the Axis. Leningrad is gone and the front has almost collapsed. The center has collapsed. The only hope for Russia is the south where the initial attacks on turn 43 resulted in a loss of 37 factors on the front line for the Russians compared to 22 factors for the Axis (counting ground units only from the first screen shot of turn 43 above.) That's close to a 1:2 ratio in favor of Axis on the first turn of severe winter, and given that the line is holding, things should go downhill for the Russians as efficiency recovers. And let us keep in mind the Russians are supposed to be counterattacking!

Russian army tech might be an issue, or perhaps not if this means air has been neglected. That will really hurt over the long term.

UK's forces must be in a shambles in terms of both tech and numbers. Will there even be a strategic air campaign to worry about? Will there be any ASW to worry about?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

My experience is that the Russians aren't too strong. In 1942 they can be pushed very hard and the Germans can be in a good position at the end of 1942. So tech wise the Russians should usually be behind the Germans for most of the war.

I think that the only problem so far is that the shock units are coming early enough to be launching an offensive in November. Maybe we can postpone entry time of the shock units a little bit so they're only available when the severe winter usually hits. The Russians can rail half of them per turn so it takes 2 turns to get them to the front line.

Now they spawn at the end of the Allied turn on October 20th 1941. That is turn 40. Maybe we should let the Siberian reserves spawn at the end of November 29th 1941 instead. This means that half the units can be railed to the front line on December 19th 1941 and the other half on January 8th 1942. This means the Russian can add them to the offense the following turn.

An alternative is to just postpone their spawn turn by 1 to 41. Then they can see battle in December 19th 1941.

The shock armies were formed in December 1941 and that seems consistent with them spawning at the end of November 29th 1941 instead of October 20th.

Another change we can do is what's discussed in another thread. We can let the attack across river be at 50% instead of 70% during winter. During severe winter (Russia only) the attack during winter across river can be 70% because the rivers froze over. That means the German river lines could hold better in November and December before the severe winter begins. The Russians could be better off waiting with their winter offensive until the severe winter.

A third change we can make is to not give Russia the great leader Chuikov (5-1-1), but Kuznetsov (3-0-0) who commanded the 1st Shock army or Meretskov (5-0-0) who commanded the Volkhov front who against controlled the 2nd Shock Army. The bonuses to attack and defense makes the shock army with Chuikov a bit too strong.

A good thing about these changes is that it works only against the first Russian winter offensive and not against the general game balance. A slightly less potent Russian 1941 winter offensive won't be bad.

I think it's too much if we alter the tech levels for Russia because if we do so then we force players to play extreme like Morris does or the Russians will be left behind too much. Morris is just focusing on a few techs with the Russians, hoping to cripple the Germans by the end of 1942 so the lack of air tech won't come back and bite him. I wonder how it's possible for Morris to get better armor and infantry tech that Germany when Germany gets extra labs earlier than Russia. So Morris much be using a lot of focus when developing techs. Should we maybe only allow countries at war to set focus for techs? That means Russia will have a balanced tech progress until Barbarossa starts.

I've added these suggestions to the please vote message thread where beta testers can vote. If they're voted in they will be available in the GS v2.01.32 update this weekend.

viewtopic.php?p=268475#268475

[zechi]

But... The russians have stats that are not consistent with what ive played before. By this i mean that there is only 1 way to face this and its the way ive done it, behind a river, high german tech and double line. This is not possible to do in every game. Remember i have spain on my side and destroyed the french very early, and also soundly defeated the first brit landing.

Are you perhaps neglecting the fact that the Axis get some penalties in fighting in winter weather and the Soviet units not? What are the tech levels of your units and what are the tech levels of the Soviet units?

I usually have the technical advantage on the Soviets in 1941. Did you buy labs at the best possible rate? I assume not, as you needed for example PP for railing in the first few turns. Nevertheless, there is also a luck element concerning research.

I also think that as the Axis player you will always have to go for good defensive positions before winter, i.e. behind a river etc. Otherwise the Soviet winter offensive can be devastating. If you do not this at the right moment, you will usually lose the game against an able Soviet player. It is completely normal that the Axis get some beating in the winter, even if in defensive positions. You cannot expect to be on the offensive all the time in GS as the Axis.

However, I think now that you are doing very well, if you handle your oil level carefully. With Leningrad and Sevastopol captured you should have more income then the Soviets (at least without convoys counted in).


Cheers Zechi