Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.4

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BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by BiteNibbleChomp »

JimmyC wrote:
Uhu wrote: ...it became clear to me, after a failed attempt, that with a timerun mode, there is no time to capture the Caucasus and it doesn't have any worth too.
I thought it is a prerequisite to defeating Russia that you must capture the oilfields?

From the pzloc file:

The main cities of the Caucasus are designated as secondary victory objectives (cities marked with "C"). Although it is not essential to capture these for a victory over the USSR, it is highly recommended to do so.

- BNC
Ryan O'Shea - Developer - Strategic Command American Civil War
Uhu
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by Uhu »

No it is not.
Update: with reworking the strategy for the final drive, I could make the DV at turn 53. 8)
JimmyC wrote:
Uhu wrote: ...it became clear to me, after a failed attempt, that with a timerun mode, there is no time to capture the Caucasus and it doesn't have any worth too.
I thought it is a prerequisite to defeating Russia that you must capture the oilfields?
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cicciopastic
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by cicciopastic »

hi guys ... is there a way to upgrade german tanks in north africa?
Uhu
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by Uhu »

You can upgrade every axis units in axis occupied city, port - after one turn of the capture. The restriction is, that you can only buy such an equipment, which nationality has the flag in the city, port or airfield.
cicciopastic wrote:hi guys ... is there a way to upgrade german tanks in north africa?
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by McGuba »

Uhu wrote:- There is a Soviet partisan unit north of Liverpool (possibly from some student change program left ).
Yeah, it has already been reported and fixed for the next version. It is just too easy to accidentaly place a unit and not to notice it in the editor in such a big map with many other units present. :cry:
- It was really annoying, that a Churchill IV spawned out from the already fully occupied zone, south of Birmingham at turns 41/43/45 (several reloaded games, possibly a triggered appearance).
I will look into it.
- The new naval mines around England should be set up, that if a major British town is already captured, no new ones appear. It was also a little annoying, that my ships got "encircled" by a new mine and it was hard to get out from it, because of the ZoC. I think, it is realistic, when the British homeland is invaded, there are no resources to build new minefields.
On the one hand it does make sense, but on the other hand it also makes some sense that the British try to disturb the ongoing invasion by placing even more mines in the supply routes. The British were very effective in dropping offensive mines from night bombers.
Oh, and an idea...
After seeing the really good TV series "The Man in the High Castle" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1740299/, which background story is, that Germany and Japan conquered the USA, I could imagine a continuity in this campaign. :) Let's say, if the player makes an early DV (for example till end of 1943) and most of the capital ships of Germany and Italy stay intact, than an invasion can be initiated in middle 1943. Hmm, what about McGuba, will you make it? I can assist. :)
Corrected: "middle of 1944".
The world is not enough, huh? :wink:

I think it is a great idea, but it would take a lot of time to make it. As a sidenote, unfortunately technically it is not possible to add another outcome in the editor as it only allows five outcomes in a scenario and those are already taken by the mod (loss, draw, MV/USSR, MV/UK, DV). So this extra scenario could only be added after a normal DV and not as you described. Also, I would not restrict the players like that as I think most players cannot even achieve a DV, so if it was only possible after a "Super" DV of yours there is a risk that only a selected few could even get there. And what's the point in creating a content that no one, or just a very few can enjoy? :roll:

As for the idea itself. I also really like alternative history and it already plays a large part in this mod. Invading the US is still a bit too fantastic for me, given that the Allies needed some two years to prepare for D-day and they only had to cross the English Channel and not the whole Atlantic Ocean. Even than they had some great supply problems early on. They faced a similar problem against Japan, so they decided to start an island hopping campaign to get closer and closer to the Japanese mainland instead of a direct assault of Japan earlier. But when it comes to the North Atlantic there are no such islands which could be used as forward bases, there is only the vast ocean between Europe and the US.

However, there are some examples for successful long range invasions in history. The UK's recapture of the Falklands in 1982 was such an operation, and even though it was at a much-much smaller scale, it was a real logistic nightmare, and at some points it almost failed. Also, many of the ships which participated in the Torch invasion in 1942 came directly from the US so they also had to make a long journey. So basically it is not absolutely impossible, just very highly unlikely.

From a gameplay point of view, though, I think invading a large landmass like the US from two sides would be less interesting than the war in the European theatre. IMO what makes the current mod interesting is the much varied gameplay: the Axis invasions in any possible directions and the Allied responses and counter-invasions at various places at the same time. These invasions and counter-invasions can create a much diverse gameplay as we experienced it. In contrast, the supposed invasion of the US would be quite simplistic with the Axis invading a large landmass from two directions and hopefully capturing most of it in a rather linear gameplay. So I think we need to come up with some great ideas to make it more interesting than that otherwise it just does not worth the effort.

On the plus side, it would be quite interesting to play around a bit more with those late war/experimental German units which only become available in the very end. And most of those unit icons are already made, so it would not require much time to add them. Also it would be a nice touch to possibly use bebro's excellent Japan units as Axis aux units in a mod like this, alongside the Wehrmacht.

On the technical side, the creation of the European map took me like two full weeks when I was out of work for a while, and that was only the base map which was corrected and improved since then many times. (I suspect that creating the map of North America at the same scale would take even longer as it is an even bigger landmass.) Only then came the placement of the units and adding the scripts which is actually still an ongoing process for some two years time. So we are not talking about some small scale side project.

Not to mention that currently I only sporadically work on PzC, mostly updating the Turan campaign for the BE v1.6 standard icon- and unit-wise and I also add a few things now and then to the BE mod in preparation for a future update. If we are here, I can hint that I do not expect to release another update for BE until Soviet Corps comes out as ideally I would add a few extra units from it to this mod. (If they will be released in a free patch at all.) So I would like to finish these two first before starting another project. If I start to work on too many things there is a chance that none of them will be finished.
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BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by BiteNibbleChomp »

McGuba wrote:The world is not enough, huh? :wink:

I think it is a great idea, but it would take a lot of time to make it. As a sidenote, unfortunately technically it is not possible to add another outcome in the editor as it only allows five outcomes in a scenario and those are already taken by the mod (loss, draw, MV/USSR, MV/UK, DV). So this extra scenario could only be added after a normal DV and not as you described. Also, I would not restrict the players like that as I think most players cannot even achieve a DV, so if it was only possible after a "Super" DV of yours there is a risk that only a selected few could even get there. And what's the point in creating a content that no one, or just a very few can enjoy? :roll:

As for the idea itself. I also really like alternative history and it already plays a large part in this mod. Invading the US is still a bit too fantastic for me, given that the Allies needed some two years to prepare for D-day and they only had to cross the English Channel and not the whole Atlantic Ocean. Even than they had some great supply problems early on. They faced a similar problem against Japan, so they decided to start an island hopping campaign to get closer and closer to the Japanese mainland instead of a direct assault of Japan earlier. But when it comes to the North Atlantic there are no such islands which could be used as forward bases, there is only the vast ocean between Europe and the US.

+ some more stuff
not to mention you invade the US in my latest release already 8) . That is, if you can defeat their navy and capture a forward supply base (Bermuda or Caribbean). :twisted: .

And anyway, where in the name 'Battlefield Europe' is anything to do with America? :lol:

- BNC
Ryan O'Shea - Developer - Strategic Command American Civil War
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by McGuba »

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
JimmyC wrote:
Uhu wrote: ...it became clear to me, after a failed attempt, that with a timerun mode, there is no time to capture the Caucasus and it doesn't have any worth too.
I thought it is a prerequisite to defeating Russia that you must capture the oilfields?

From the pzloc file:

The main cities of the Caucasus are designated as secondary victory objectives (cities marked with "C"). Although it is not essential to capture these for a victory over the USSR, it is highly recommended to do so.

- BNC
Sure, as BNC pointed out, it is hinted in one of the game message boxes that capturing the Caucasus is not essential for defeating the USSR. It seems that the Generalfeldmarschall must have overlooked this tiny little detail, which might have cost some lives... :oops:

But seriously, it gives more freedom to the player and indeed, some generals argued the justification of that operation and insisted on capturing the original objectives from previous year, Moscow and Leningrad instead. Also reaching Stalingrad-Astrakhan line, which are victory objectives, would essentially cut off the Caucasus from the rest of the Soviet Union and from that point its capture would be largely irrelevant IMO. And even though those oilfields would have been very useful for Germany, history shows us the Wehrmacht was able to fight quite effectively for years without having access to them. For the above reasons their capture is not neccessary, just highly recommended.
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GeneralWerner
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by GeneralWerner »

And not only the Generalfeldmarschall has overlooked this tiny detail, also the Reichsfeldmarschall :oops:

Even in my last play I skipped the idea of trying to get a MV in the east and went for a Draw. Reaching the Volga in the last months was possible but recapturing the whole Caucasus not.
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by P210 »

Hello,

I have to again thank you for this magnificent mod.

Recently finished Kursk save. Result was a draw. It was a bitter fight but I finally managed to punch enough 7.5 and 8.8 cm holes into "russian steam roller" :)

Western allies were stopped at Paris, but unfortunately I did lose Italy. Somehow forgot certain airborne operation in Netherlands. It was a nice suprice. Though most of the headaches were caused by allied air superiority.

Then some comment on unit stats.

Issue. Late model StuH42 changes to early model when swithed to AT mode.

Changes in Recon units are good.

Suggestion. Maybe it would be justifiable to have one Ju88C before Barbarossa. There were a number of those in (night) fighter/bomber, maritime patrol/attack, ground attack and interdiction use. And maybe one of the existing Ju88 could be in Mediterranean. Air attack would likely be comparable to Bf110 and, as it can carry more ordanance, the ground and ship attack values could be a bit higher.

OT. Turan campaign is really great. I did learn a lot about Hungary WW2 history. As a Finn I strongly relate to minor nation struggles in WW2. Looking forward to your Turan campaign update!
McGuba
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by McGuba »

P210 wrote:Hello,

I have to again thank you for this magnificent mod.

Recently finished Kursk save. Result was a draw. It was a bitter fight but I finally managed to punch enough 7.5 and 8.8 cm holes into "russian steam roller"
Hi, nice result. :)
Issue. Late model StuH42 changes to early model when swithed to AT mode.
Ah, it is indeed a problem, and has not been reported by others. I will fix it in the next version, thanks.
Suggestion. Maybe it would be justifiable to have one Ju88C before Barbarossa. There were a number of those in (night) fighter/bomber, maritime patrol/attack, ground attack and interdiction use. And maybe one of the existing Ju88 could be in Mediterranean. Air attack would likely be comparable to Bf110 and, as it can carry more ordanance, the ground and ship attack values could be a bit higher.
As far as I know the Ju 88C variant was not widely used. It seems that only NJG 2 had some 30 in Germany in the night figther role in June 1941, and in this mod one air unit represents 100-150 aircraft so it just does not hit the mark. Even later there were not much more Ju 88Cs used in the night fighter role as the favoured types between 1941-43 were the Bf 110 and the Do 217 until the arrival of the more capable Ju 88G.

http://www.oocities.org/sturmvogel_66/LWJul42.html

As for the additional Ju 88 unit in the Med. Until v1.5 there were only 2 Ju 88 pre-placed on the map and I added a 3rd one to the Eastern front in v1.6 to better represent the real ratio of the Ju 88 in the Luftwaffe compared to other types. However, I should have added a fourth one as by 1941 the Ju 88 was by far the most numerous two engine German bomber. So I was thinking about adding another one to the Med as well, but did not want to change the existing balance too much in one step.

But now I counted the German bombers again and it looks like in June 1941 there were 480 Ju-88, 281 He-111 and 102 Do-17 in the East. And currently there are 3 Ju-88, 2 He-111 and 1 Do-17 units on the map. So there could be a fourth Ju-88 to better represent the historical ratios and to keep the one air unit per 100-150 aircraft representation ratio. And even though there were another 114 Ju-88s in the Med at that time it seems that only 36 of those were servicable, while most of those in the East were ready for action. So probably I will add a 4th Ju-88 unit to the East, like the KG 3, and then players can move any of those bombers wherever they want.

Historcially just a few dozen German aircraft were left at Sicily and the Med in June 1941 the majority being transfered to the East prior to Barbarossa. As a result Malta could recover from the heavy bombing a bit as only the Italians were left to finish it. But they could not so in late 1941, with the weather getting worse in the East, many Luftwaffe units were sent back to Sicily again. So it was quite normal to send units here and there in accordance with the current situation.
OT. Turan campaign is really great. I did learn a lot about Hungary WW2 history. As a Finn I strongly relate to minor nation struggles in WW2. Looking forward to your Turan campaign update!
Sure, for a number of reasons the role of the Minor Axis nations in WW2 is degraded and not just in PzC, but also in general. :( One of my main intentions in modding is to put them back in the right historical context.
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cicciopastic
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by cicciopastic »

Hi guys,

I had to start again after my first game as i misundersood a number of rules. I was at fall 1942 and after taking leningrad and rostov i was struggling around moscow. In the mediterranean i was breaking trough the fortified line west of alexandria and battleling on cyprus soil. In north atlantic i had a lot of losses, while the med was now a mare nostrum (as i'm italian my fist target was to get rid of the royal navy there).

On my second game everithing seems a bit easier (!) even if i'm just at the end of august 1941. Unlukily it is not easy to find much time to play with two kids and a wife around.

Anyway it is a great fun!!!

Just a couple of questions:
1 i was not able to upgrade the two captured tanks i started with in france. Is that a game limit?
2 how do italian frogmen operate?

Thanks again for this wonderful modul!!!
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by slowgtp »

Why is there no road between Kaunas and Riga? I've always thought that that was a bit odd.

All in all, I LOVE this mod and thank you for the hard work and dedication on this. However, I do believe that the south should be a bit more 'Germanized' particularly when operations into the Caucausus beyond Kerch and Rostov begin. Right now my force is almost entirely Romanian. I find my German units sucked away into the Kiev-Kursk-Voronezh axis every playthrough.
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by JimmyC »

cicciopastic wrote: On my second game everithing seems a bit easier (!) even if i'm just at the end of august 1941. Unlukily it is not easy to find much time to play with two kids and a wife around.

Anyway it is a great fun!!!

Just a couple of questions:
1 i was not able to upgrade the two captured tanks i started with in france. Is that a game limit?
2 how do italian frogmen operate?

Thanks again for this wonderful modul!!!
Just wait for the winter - things will start getting a lot tougher then. And that just doesn't apply to winter of '41, also '42 and '43. And after that, you also fear the summer as it allows the Allies to relentlessly bomb you. Ah, good times! +1 regarding real life getting in the way of gaming time. I am in exactly the same position.

Re your questions -
1. those tanks cannot be upgraded, so you are stuck with them. I just use them for partisan hunting duty and only give them green replacements.
2. I also was confused with this initially. It turns out the "frogmen mode" is just for colour. You should therefore just use this unit like a sub and keep it in submarine mode (deep dive, shallow dive or surfaced).
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by McGuba »

cicciopastic wrote: Just a couple of questions:
1 i was not able to upgrade the two captured tanks i started with in france. Is that a game limit?
It is intentional. The Germans did use several hundred captured French tanks for occupation (anti partisan) duties in Yugoslavia and the East until the end of the war. A few were also used in the Finnish front and against the Western Allies in France in 1944. I wanted these to be represented in the mod for historical accuracy but the only way to do so was to give them the "no upgrade" trait otherwise players would upgrade them. There are enough other obsolete German tank units on the map which can be upgraded to more modern types while these can be used in their historical (or any other secondary) role.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotchkiss_H35
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOMUA_S35
2 how do italian frogmen operate?
Actually they are more likely represent human torpedoes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_torpedo

Historically these were carried by conventional submarines to their intended targets and then released when near. After they carried out their attacks they returned to their carrier submarine which took them back to their home port. So their recommended use in the mod is similar: for long range movement they should be switched to surfaced (on "safe" waters) or submerged (on less safe waters) submarine mode and when near a potential enemy target they should switch to submerged human torpedo mode to carry out their attack and to disengage and then back to submarine mode to return to a home port to replenish their ammunition.

As Jimmy wrote the surfaced human torpedo mode is only there for "flavour" (= to better represent / understand what they are). They should be used in submerged human torpedo mode for best effect.
slowgtp wrote:Why is there no road between Kaunas and Riga? I've always thought that that was a bit odd.
True, I will add it in the next release. Somehow just left it out.
All in all, I LOVE this mod and thank you for the hard work and dedication on this. However, I do believe that the south should be a bit more 'Germanized' particularly when operations into the Caucausus beyond Kerch and Rostov begin. Right now my force is almost entirely Romanian. I find my German units sucked away into the Kiev-Kursk-Voronezh axis every playthrough.
Historically in the very south there was only the German 11th army sandwitched between the Romanian 3rd and 4th armies attacking from Romania at the beginning of Barbarossa. And even the 11th army was not fully German as it had some Romanian units attached to it. That's how it happened and thus basically that's exactly how it is represented in this mod. Later on some more German units were directed south and the Italian and Hungarian expedition corpses also joined the invasion in that area. Then, in 1942, as the main attack was stopped at Moscow, the drive on south became the most important operation with around half of all the available Axis forces subordinated to Army Group South with the intention to take Stalingrad and the Caucasus.

However, in this mod only the 1941 starting position is set up as historically so if you want to have more German units in the south in 1942 as historically, you have to transfer several units from the center and the north down south just as it happened. After all you are the supreme commander now. :wink:
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BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by BiteNibbleChomp »

McGuba wrote:... the Italian and Hungarian expedition corpses also joined the invasion in that area.
They sent dead bodies? :lol:

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by McGuba »

Haha, yeah they tried everything, but just could not beat Uncle Joe. :D
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by Uhu »

cicciopastic wrote: Just a couple of questions:
1 i was not able to upgrade the two captured tanks i started with in france. Is that a game limit?
McGuba wrote:It is intentional. The Germans did use several hundred captured French tanks for occupation (anti partisan) duties in Yugoslavia and the East until the end of the war.
I always transport them ASAP to the east. In 1941, they are quite good and the Somua even in 1942 partly. I never pay to reinforce them, but I sacrifice them to the onslaught in the winter of 1942, to buy time. They are too expensive for partisan hunting duties IMHO. The Pz IIC and the Pz35(t) are cheaper, therefore the reinforcements are also cheaper, when suffering losses during partisan hunting.
McGuba wrote: As Jimmy wrote the surfaced human torpedo mode is only there for "flavour" (= to better represent / understand what they are). They should be used in submerged human torpedo mode for best effect.
Exactly! Because the +1 Attack value do not compensate the -3Def and -1 Mov points. So I always use them, as sub. Althrough the only 2 ammo goes fast away. :)
slowgtp wrote:Why is there no road between Kaunas and Riga? I've always thought that that was a bit odd.
It is just in the 1st-2nd turn a problem. After the front gone east, if you want to move something, you do use the train.
All in all, I LOVE this mod and thank you for the hard work and dedication on this. However, I do believe that the south should be a bit more 'Germanized' particularly when operations into the Caucausus beyond Kerch and Rostov begin. Right now my force is almost entirely Romanian. I find my German units sucked away into the Kiev-Kursk-Voronezh axis every playthrough.
I usually send the French tanks, 1-2 rec units, 1-2 Kradschützen/Armored Recon units there too, because of the vast distances. Also transport the Karl-Gerät there (from Odessa), to use them at Sevastopol.
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by cicciopastic »

Thanks everybody for the quick answer!

It is a real pity i cannot upgrade those franch tank .... It was a real pain to ship them to tobruk :shock: .... That is one reason i decided to restart my match :lol:

About italian frogman (maiali) they add a lot of flavor to me as they are very famous in italy: there are not a lot of eroic facts about the italian wwii. Unlukily another eroic sad fact is just about that corp that italy sent to south russia .... If you are interested u may find some iformation searcing for Csir or armir (ie corpo spedizione italiano in russia and armata italiana in russia). I know it was just a joke ... But many of our granfathers just come back as "corps" or didn't just come back for a foolish and absurd war ... I didn't meant to be too Sad, so thank again and see u soon
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by JimmyC »

cicciopastic wrote:Thanks everybody for the quick answer!

It is a real pity i cannot upgrade those franch tank .... It was a real pain to ship them to tobruk :shock: .... That is one reason i decided to restart my match :lol:

About italian frogman (maiali) they add a lot of flavor to me as they are very famous in italy: there are not a lot of eroic facts about the italian wwii. Unlukily another eroic sad fact is just about that corp that italy sent to south russia .... If you are interested u may find some iformation searcing for Csir or armir (ie corpo spedizione italiano in russia and armata italiana in russia). I know it was just a joke ... But many of our granfathers just come back as "corps" or didn't just come back for a foolish and absurd war ... I didn't meant to be too Sad, so thank again and see u soon
I read somewhere about Italian forces that fought their way back to Axis territory after Operation Uranus. They had to march hundreds of kilometers and all the while being attacked by Russian troops. In the end they basically resorted to human wave tactics to break through the Russian held stronpoints (wounded soldiers also attacking). Really incredible story. Will try and dig it up and post the link.

I believe there were some quite successful Italian forces in North Africa as well.

But yes, the Italian Frogmen are quite famous and it really adds to the experience that McGuba adds these little things to the game.
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v1.6

Post by McGuba »

cicciopastic wrote:About italian frogman (maiali) they add a lot of flavor to me as they are very famous in italy: there are not a lot of eroic facts about the italian wwii. Unlukily another eroic sad fact is just about that corp that italy sent to south russia .... If you are interested u may find some iformation searcing for Csir or armir (ie corpo spedizione italiano in russia and armata italiana in russia). I know it was just a joke ... But many of our granfathers just come back as "corps" or didn't just come back for a foolish and absurd war ... I didn't meant to be too Sad, so thank again and see u soon
I think it is not just the Italians, but pretty much all the other Minor Axis nations are mistreated by history a bit. Compared to the Wehrmacht they were all ill-equipped, less well trained, and not very well motivated in helping the Third Reich in reaching its war aims. On top of that, several German generals had a tendency to claim all the glory in successful joint operations to the German units while blaming their Minor Axis allies for the failures. However, whenever given the right equipment and enough supplies those armies could also fight just as hard, especially when they were defending their homelands.
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