Medium Foot Rebalance Discussion

[Swuul]

This is true, but I think that if we are going to say that MF are a bit more like HF in certain types of terrain (i.e. they will experience some disorder), then I think we also need to say in that mod that MF are a bit more like HF in open terrain and look to give them something back in compensation (maybe in the area of CT tests).

Especially Impact Medium Foot already are like HF in all but the name IMO. Sure, the armour difference gives a slight malus to MF in combat with HF, but IMO being cheaper and more manouverable more than compensate that. Of course the malus to CT is there too if MF lose the round, but removing that malus prolly would be way too much. Then again, maybe it would be one idea to apply that CT malus for MF facing HF/HC only affect if the MF isn't already disordered or worse, ie so that they would have a bit more staying-power even when the chips are already down?

[stockwellpete]

Especially Impact Medium Foot already are like HF in all but the name IMO. Sure, the armour difference gives a slight malus to MF in combat with HF, but IMO being cheaper and more manouverable more than compensate that. Of course the malus to CT is there too if MF lose the round, but removing that malus prolly would be way too much. Then again, maybe it would be one idea to apply that CT malus for MF facing HF/HC only affect if the MF isn't already disordered or worse, ie so that they would have a bit more staying-power even when the chips are already down?

Yes, I am sure that there will be a number of ways of going at the issue.

[Ludendorf]

I am currently trying to find two army lists where an army of heavy, non-warband infantry of average quality can go up against an army of medium, non-warband infantry of average quality, with no other unit types involved in the fight. This would allow us to gather evidence objectively. We could make it the world's most boring tournament.

(It would also make for a pretty good practice of basic infantry tactics.)

[TheGrayMouser]

I am currently trying to find two army lists where an army of heavy, non-warband infantry of average quality can go up against an army of medium, non-warband infantry of average quality, with no other unit types involved in the fight. This would allow us to gather evidence objectively. We could make it the world's most boring tournament.

Illyrian ( medium offensive spear) versus later hoplite ( heavy protected offensive spear) perhaps? The lights and few horses should cancel out...

[Ludendorf]

Illyrian ( medium offensive spear) versus later hoplite ( heavy protected offensive spear) perhaps? The lights and few horses should cancel out...

Wow, I think you're onto something there TGM. The Greek Mercenary list on Very Small size allows for an army of nothing but mercenary hoplites, and the Illyrians can only field thureophoroi. Both sides also use up all or almost all of their points.

This would be perfect! I could actually set this up now if people are interested in a practical test. Any takers? I'm thinking of making the battlefield agricultural or hilly. You wouldn't expect to take a lot of heavy infantry in wooded terrain.

[Schweetness101]

Illyrian ( medium offensive spear) versus later hoplite ( heavy protected offensive spear) perhaps? The lights and few horses should cancel out...

Wow, I think you're onto something there TGM. The Greek Mercenary list on Very Small size allows for an army of nothing but mercenary hoplites, and the Illyrians can only field thureophoroi. Both sides also use up all or almost all of their points.

This would be perfect! I could actually set this up now if people are interested in a practical test. Any takers? I'm thinking of making the battlefield agricultural or hilly. You wouldn't expect to take a lot of heavy infantry in wooded terrain.

you could also try medium vs heavy light spear lists, like a brythonic foot army vs abid al shira army, if that exists, edit: arab city has lots of cheap light spear heavy foot

it might also be interesting to test a hellenic or other normal pike army vs pictish pikes, given that the latter qualify as medium foot

you could also try a medium foot heavy weapon army like the Irish against a heavy foot heavy weapon army if that exists.

[Paul59]

Illyrian ( medium offensive spear) versus later hoplite ( heavy protected offensive spear) perhaps? The lights and few horses should cancel out...

Wow, I think you're onto something there TGM. The Greek Mercenary list on Very Small size allows for an army of nothing but mercenary hoplites, and the Illyrians can only field thureophoroi. Both sides also use up all or almost all of their points.

This would be perfect! I could actually set this up now if people are interested in a practical test. Any takers? I'm thinking of making the battlefield agricultural or hilly. You wouldn't expect to take a lot of heavy infantry in wooded terrain.

you could also try medium vs heavy light spear lists, like a brythonic foot army vs abid al shira army, if that exists, edit: arab city has lots of cheap light spear heavy foot

it might also be interesting to test a hellenic or other normal pike army vs pictish pikes, given that the latter qualify as medium foot

you could also try a medium foot heavy weapon army like the Irish against a heavy foot heavy weapon army if that exists.

Picts are Offensive Spear, not Pikes though.

There is no Heavy Foot Heavy Weapon army. The only units that are Heavy Foot and Heavy Weapon are the Huscarls (Axe), and they are only a minority in the armies (Viking and Anglo-Danish) that have them.

[Schweetness101]

Wow, I think you're onto something there TGM. The Greek Mercenary list on Very Small size allows for an army of nothing but mercenary hoplites, and the Illyrians can only field thureophoroi. Both sides also use up all or almost all of their points.

This would be perfect! I could actually set this up now if people are interested in a practical test. Any takers? I'm thinking of making the battlefield agricultural or hilly. You wouldn't expect to take a lot of heavy infantry in wooded terrain.

you could also try medium vs heavy light spear lists, like a brythonic foot army vs abid al shira army, if that exists, edit: arab city has lots of cheap light spear heavy foot

it might also be interesting to test a hellenic or other normal pike army vs pictish pikes, given that the latter qualify as medium foot

you could also try a medium foot heavy weapon army like the Irish against a heavy foot heavy weapon army if that exists.

Picts are Offensive Spear, not Pikes though.

There is no Heavy Foot Heavy Weapon army. The only units that are Heavy Foot and Heavy Weapon are the Huscarls (Axe), and they are only a minority in the armies (Viking and Anglo-Danish) that have them.

yeah i couldn't find a heavy weapon army, although i guess you could just use the editor to set something up

[SnuggleBunnies]

Yes, I imagine we won't see much more HF HW until Medieval, and even then they will be components of the army, not the dominant part (Voulgiers, Billmen, etc.)

[pompeytheflatulent]

Well, there's the Swiss before they switched over from halberd to pike. But I doubt we'll be seeing those anytime soon with the current pace of DLC releases.

[Ludendorf]

Well, that is the end of my first mirror test with Karvon. We pitted a full army of Illyrian Thureophoroi against a full army of Greek Mercenary Hoplites. Both armies deployed with almost all of their points spent. (I believe one of the lists had enough for a single unit of javelins that was not taken to the field.)

The result of one of the matches, where I took was an aborted wash. I managed to take control of a critical position early on, and this forced Karvon to retreat into dense forest. I couldn't follow him into such terrain (a notable advantage for mediums was their ability to vanish like that into difficult ground) and it would have taken the rest of the battle just for Karvon to redeploy and begin to assail my positions. The result was a 0%-0% draw.

The other match was far more interesting however. The clock ran out, and I was winning 44-51% when the sun went down, and appeared to be on course for a victory had things not ended there. I do feel that this was due to the nature of the armies rather than any particular good play on my part. Karvon manoeuvred his infantry masterfully, opening up quite a few flanks on me despite being outnumbered, and he managed to use his generals to get quite a few rallies. This led to me being on the ropes at one point; I was down to 58% at one point, with Karvon in a much stronger position. Chance rallies on my side towards the end of the battle brought things back to the end score.

Karvon had the advantage of an elevated position, though this may have been overwhelmed by my medium infantry managing to push his C-in-C back onto a patch of rough ground, giving me a considerable local advantage there. Assuming the terrain cancelled everything out, and considering that neither player made any major mistakes, I would say that medium infantry, in this one isolated data point, seem to be more cost-efficient than their heavy infantry counterparts, and could possibly use being a little more expensive, especially considering that this was essentially an open battle, and the mediums' advantage on the rough only came into play at one point in the battle. On a rough or forested field, Karvon's disadvantage would presumably have been even more pronounced.

There were some signs that the -1 cohesion check was having an effect. I suffered either two or three instant fragmentations during the battle to Karvon's one. (I'm fairly confident it was three). Both of us had decent luck withstanding flank charges, with all of us getting off with only disruptions or fragmentations instead of drops from steady straight to broken. However, this wasn't enough to compensate for the fact that I had three extra units on the field, which meant easier flanking, and three extra lives on Karvon's army, even if those units were slightly easier to lose.

This is however a single point of data, and I will need to conduct further testing. I'd also like to hear my opponent's thoughts on the matter, and need to look through some of the screenshots I took in case anything else come to light.

[Karvon]

A couple of additional comments or clarifications.

The match up was 12 merc. hopolites vs 14 Thureophoroi at 48 pts ea vs 42 pts ea. in a 600 pt battle.

I think the terrain favored the MF more, as there was a large woods on one flank to take advantage of, the odd patches of rough, and several hills one could park on for bonus.

When I commanded the MF, I opted for a terrain based deployment, hiding in the woods and behind some hills. I was hoping I might be able to either overload one wing of the hopolites from my hidden positions or lure them into an ambush. Unfortunately, the hills didn't completely mask my flanking force movement and Ludendorf quite effectively countered by shifting his whole force to counter and he was closer to the high ground than I, so I fell back along the edges of the woods, rather vainly hoping he might pursue too far. Naturally, he wisely didn't, so we called the game as there wasn't enough time for any significant movement.

When Ludendorf commanded the MF, he opted for a more aggressive double envelopment of my smaller force initially deployed on a hill. His center was parked on an opposing ridge, so I couldn't effectively attack that at reasonable odds. I slowly refused my wings as his pincers attempted to flank me. Eventually, we engaged with me gaining the edge on my left, but he on my right and then the center. Shuttling a general around, I did manage to rally 4 units, 3 of which survived to help rebuild a final line as night fell.

Also, I don't think it was my CinC, but a neighbor, who got pushed into rough terrain, leading to a faster demise. My CinC actually fought quite heroically, anchoring the left end of my center along the hill. He destroyed two successive units before finally dying as his guard autobroke near the end of the battle.

While the HF was a bit tougher, the more numerous MF proved more versatile and dangerous IMHO.

It was an interesting experiment, but I think I'd like to see a rerun using citizen hopolites who cost the same as the Thureophoroi. For the 6 pt savings they lose some maneuverability, but I'd take that trade off.

Karvon