I'm loving this AAR. All of us are rooting for you!
Also, it's a huge compliment to Moriss's abilities that this is what it takes (so far, anyway) to beat him.
Supermax-Moriss restart (Game stopped)
Moderators: Happycat, rkr1958, Slitherine Core
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Diplomaticus
- Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
- Posts: 447
- Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:10 pm
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Peter Stauffenberg
- General - Carrier
- Posts: 4745
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:13 pm
- Location: Oslo, Norway
I think Morris is heading for trouble here. His 1941 winter offensive will not be as devastating as he hoped. Supermax can still retreat if seriously threatened in the south.
From January 1942 the supply level 4 area will increase further east.
I expect that Supermax will survive the 1941 winter and be in an excellent position to push hard against the Russians in 1942. If the Russians don't research air tech it means that they will be no match to the Luftwaffe later in the war. You need airpower to soften up German targets from 1943 and beyond. So Supermax can now just let the techs get in so his corps units get to 5-4 instead of 4-3 and mechs and armor get more firepower. He's researching antitank and that's really important. It means that Morrises tanks will struggle on the offensive. They will be better on the defensive, but if they can be harassed by tac bombers they can be killed.
I think the key units for Morris will be his mechs. So Supermax needs to focus on these units. The Russian mechs are strong now and can hurt the German corps units hard.
I believe that Morris will go for a 1942 invasion of France to pin a lot of Axis units there. Since the RN is rather crippled then Supermax can build a healthy sub force and hunt the US surface ships too. Without enough escorts it will be hard to get the land and air units over from USA to Britain.
Morris is not getting anywhere in Libya and that means Italy is not under any threat. So the only major theater now is Russia. The Russian guards won't be more than the 4 siberian reserves and they can't make miracles. With a weak Red Air Force it means the Luftwaffe can wear down the Russian offensive power.
I think the only big threat for Supermax right now is his oil consumption. By using the Luftwaffe and fighting in the west as well he might get quite low on oil during 1942. So he might have to try for Grozny and Maikop oilfields and maybe even Baku. He can go for broken and try for Moscow and Omsk, but if he fails then the oil level will be too low to defend properly against the Allies.
I don't know his exact oil level, but he should have the oil reserves almost up to 700 before the 1942 Spring offensive begins.
From January 1942 the supply level 4 area will increase further east.
I expect that Supermax will survive the 1941 winter and be in an excellent position to push hard against the Russians in 1942. If the Russians don't research air tech it means that they will be no match to the Luftwaffe later in the war. You need airpower to soften up German targets from 1943 and beyond. So Supermax can now just let the techs get in so his corps units get to 5-4 instead of 4-3 and mechs and armor get more firepower. He's researching antitank and that's really important. It means that Morrises tanks will struggle on the offensive. They will be better on the defensive, but if they can be harassed by tac bombers they can be killed.
I think the key units for Morris will be his mechs. So Supermax needs to focus on these units. The Russian mechs are strong now and can hurt the German corps units hard.
I believe that Morris will go for a 1942 invasion of France to pin a lot of Axis units there. Since the RN is rather crippled then Supermax can build a healthy sub force and hunt the US surface ships too. Without enough escorts it will be hard to get the land and air units over from USA to Britain.
Morris is not getting anywhere in Libya and that means Italy is not under any threat. So the only major theater now is Russia. The Russian guards won't be more than the 4 siberian reserves and they can't make miracles. With a weak Red Air Force it means the Luftwaffe can wear down the Russian offensive power.
I think the only big threat for Supermax right now is his oil consumption. By using the Luftwaffe and fighting in the west as well he might get quite low on oil during 1942. So he might have to try for Grozny and Maikop oilfields and maybe even Baku. He can go for broken and try for Moscow and Omsk, but if he fails then the oil level will be too low to defend properly against the Allies.
I don't know his exact oil level, but he should have the oil reserves almost up to 700 before the 1942 Spring offensive begins.
Thanks. Well, thats what i think as well. It seemsmthat i will have total air superiority for a long while still.Plaid wrote:Looks like Morris keep neglecting soviet airpower in his games, so he will have huge troubles trying to be offencive with soviets in late game.
He bets all on victory in first year or two. If you manage to preserve most of your army through winter, during 1942 summer soviet army will either end destroyed or retreat to Syberia.
Impressive play so far!
That is also my impression, that moriss bets all on a pre end of 1942 game decider.
Rhialto:
Well, i could not have given my thoughts better than you did.
Retreating amounts to loosing the game. I think that i can hold the line, even if it cost me some manpower, i am still at 85% after all.
Moriss losses are already closing on the 700 kar, he lost close to 60 russian units to date.
If i stave off thid 1941 offensive, thn i believe i can win on the long haul.
Well, i could not have given my thoughts better than you did.
Retreating amounts to loosing the game. I think that i can hold the line, even if it cost me some manpower, i am still at 85% after all.
Moriss losses are already closing on the 700 kar, he lost close to 60 russian units to date.
If i stave off thid 1941 offensive, thn i believe i can win on the long haul.
Borger.
You just said it, that is my main weakness.
Because of this very reason i have started to be very cautius about yhe oil i use, which, in a sense, is not entirely a bad thing considering my agressive play style.
Low oil levels and the sure thing of a landing in the west for 1942 makes me think of being more or less defensive in the east, appart from localised offensive.
I dont think i can have another grand scale bararossa for 1942.
What do you think of me doing a defensive type warfare startinn in 1942, using manstein concept of strategic elasticity? That is, think defensively, let the russians expand themselves and counter- attack when needed?
If i can survive the winter like i believe i will, then if i keep building force like fighters and other stuff with my 160 revenue a turn, i fail to see how thr russian can totally break me?
Appart from saving oil, the manpower situation would also be very good for the germans.
These will be hard decisions if i can manage to stave off this legendary moriss russian offensive.
Its weird but for the first time sinc ive played this game i feel like the underdog hehehe every time i open my turn the last 2-3 i dread the disaster that the russian fron could be, but its been fine so far.
WILL IT HOLD?
You just said it, that is my main weakness.
Because of this very reason i have started to be very cautius about yhe oil i use, which, in a sense, is not entirely a bad thing considering my agressive play style.
Low oil levels and the sure thing of a landing in the west for 1942 makes me think of being more or less defensive in the east, appart from localised offensive.
I dont think i can have another grand scale bararossa for 1942.
What do you think of me doing a defensive type warfare startinn in 1942, using manstein concept of strategic elasticity? That is, think defensively, let the russians expand themselves and counter- attack when needed?
If i can survive the winter like i believe i will, then if i keep building force like fighters and other stuff with my 160 revenue a turn, i fail to see how thr russian can totally break me?
Appart from saving oil, the manpower situation would also be very good for the germans.
These will be hard decisions if i can manage to stave off this legendary moriss russian offensive.
Its weird but for the first time sinc ive played this game i feel like the underdog hehehe every time i open my turn the last 2-3 i dread the disaster that the russian fron could be, but its been fine so far.
WILL IT HOLD?
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Peter Stauffenberg
- General - Carrier
- Posts: 4745
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:13 pm
- Location: Oslo, Norway
I think the main focus for 1942 should be to kill as many Russian units you can before the winter. You need to have a healthy force in France to stop the landings at the beaches. I would also go for a strong sub force to take out the US naval units before they get too many. If you see that you've lost the battle of the Atlantic then you don't need more subs. At least you can then send the subs to the coastal waters near Holland and Germany to block the coast line there.
I would try to target the Russian mech and armor units and maybe base fighters close enough to attack Russian airbases. Go for his offensive firepower and if you can get across the Don you
have an excellent chance taking Maikop and maybe even Grozny. Those will give you vital extra oil.
You need to be careful about not overextending your front line so your line gets too thin. That opens up for Russian counter attacks close to the 1942 winter offensive.
I think you need to get the right techs to keep the Russians at bay for a long time. Remember that industry tech can increase the production from the synth oil plants. Industry 4 increases the production from each plant to 2 and industry 6 increases to 3. Since each PP will generate 4 oil you can get a significant increase by getting more industry tech. The Allies can bombard the plants, but at least the Leuna plant can't be reached for quite some time.
I think you should get the techs to counter the Russian armor and mech. That means antitank, ground defense and survivability. Get Manstein to cover a big front section in the south so your best units will have decent tech in the next winter offensive.
Try to get to river lines in the center and north and hold them. They're good points to contain the Russian winter offensive. If he gets through you just retreat to the next river line. Make sure you have enough units in the rear to deal with partisans so they can't move too much. Pin them and destroy them when they have slightly less efficiency.
Since you have Gibraltar I think you don't have to worry about a strong invasion of Italy for quite some time. Morris might go for a landing in Portugal as an alternative to France. That's a harder one to defend against, but there is a lot of good defensive terrain in Spain.
Morris can still win this game, but he can't afford to make more unsuccessful invasions as he just did. He needs to make sure he wins where he decides to fight. His only chance to win is to bleed the Germans manpower wise, oil wise and production wise. That means hordes of strategic bombers and action several places at the same time. I wonder if he can actually do this.
I believe the war will be decided in 1942. If you can kill enough Russian units and even destriy some mech and armor units then he will begin to struggle in Russia. So his best option is to just retreat and let you burn oil trying to get to his forces. That can be dangerous for you so the alternative could be to just get to the river lines you want to defend and instead form a double defense line along the entire coast. His bite in the 1942 winter offensive will be strong, but at least you have a good line.
But I guess Morris really wants to cripple the Germans in 1941-1942 so I think he will overspend his offensive firepower in the winter offensive and not retreat in time in 1942. He won't get many guards units from promotions if he only retreats and most of them will be corps units anyway. His guards are the really dangerous ones so go after them with all you have.
Since it's now 1942 you can go for more SS and para units. I would go for SS mech or armor to have crushing firepower in the east or France and put paras in important coastal cities like Brest or Cherbourg. These units have good defense and are cheap to repair.
In 1943 you can build SS corps units to not overspend your oil consumption and place them in critical cities with a +1 defense leader. I like to have 2 SS panzer, 2 SS mech (1 free with SS Wiking and Nordland in July 1943) and the rest SS corps. Since Russia can't buy guards I think the main targets for 1942 should be the Shock armies.
I would try to target the Russian mech and armor units and maybe base fighters close enough to attack Russian airbases. Go for his offensive firepower and if you can get across the Don you
have an excellent chance taking Maikop and maybe even Grozny. Those will give you vital extra oil.
You need to be careful about not overextending your front line so your line gets too thin. That opens up for Russian counter attacks close to the 1942 winter offensive.
I think you need to get the right techs to keep the Russians at bay for a long time. Remember that industry tech can increase the production from the synth oil plants. Industry 4 increases the production from each plant to 2 and industry 6 increases to 3. Since each PP will generate 4 oil you can get a significant increase by getting more industry tech. The Allies can bombard the plants, but at least the Leuna plant can't be reached for quite some time.
I think you should get the techs to counter the Russian armor and mech. That means antitank, ground defense and survivability. Get Manstein to cover a big front section in the south so your best units will have decent tech in the next winter offensive.
Try to get to river lines in the center and north and hold them. They're good points to contain the Russian winter offensive. If he gets through you just retreat to the next river line. Make sure you have enough units in the rear to deal with partisans so they can't move too much. Pin them and destroy them when they have slightly less efficiency.
Since you have Gibraltar I think you don't have to worry about a strong invasion of Italy for quite some time. Morris might go for a landing in Portugal as an alternative to France. That's a harder one to defend against, but there is a lot of good defensive terrain in Spain.
Morris can still win this game, but he can't afford to make more unsuccessful invasions as he just did. He needs to make sure he wins where he decides to fight. His only chance to win is to bleed the Germans manpower wise, oil wise and production wise. That means hordes of strategic bombers and action several places at the same time. I wonder if he can actually do this.
I believe the war will be decided in 1942. If you can kill enough Russian units and even destriy some mech and armor units then he will begin to struggle in Russia. So his best option is to just retreat and let you burn oil trying to get to his forces. That can be dangerous for you so the alternative could be to just get to the river lines you want to defend and instead form a double defense line along the entire coast. His bite in the 1942 winter offensive will be strong, but at least you have a good line.
But I guess Morris really wants to cripple the Germans in 1941-1942 so I think he will overspend his offensive firepower in the winter offensive and not retreat in time in 1942. He won't get many guards units from promotions if he only retreats and most of them will be corps units anyway. His guards are the really dangerous ones so go after them with all you have.
Since it's now 1942 you can go for more SS and para units. I would go for SS mech or armor to have crushing firepower in the east or France and put paras in important coastal cities like Brest or Cherbourg. These units have good defense and are cheap to repair.
In 1943 you can build SS corps units to not overspend your oil consumption and place them in critical cities with a +1 defense leader. I like to have 2 SS panzer, 2 SS mech (1 free with SS Wiking and Nordland in July 1943) and the rest SS corps. Since Russia can't buy guards I think the main targets for 1942 should be the Shock armies.
Borger:
Well, you make all good points, but i think that while my situation is solid, i cant do all those things. With my oil, ressources and Moriss agresiveness, i cant go for half measure and MOST IMPORTANTLY cannot get caught on any of the 2 main fronts with my pants down. If that happens the game will be short-lived.
The techs will be ky here. With the beating the brits got in 40-41 i should think that their troops will be shitty at best, and its probably not like Moriss invested a ton of research in them. So i will invest all i can into Armor and INF and get that as high as possible.
The oil situation will not get better over time, but if i keep a defensive mindset i think i can manage the precious liquid properly.
In russia, it remains to be seen what kind of stance i will take once the spring hits the country. Since Moriss will probably be retreating anyway, i think i shall only follow him but not get involved into any hardpitch battle. With enough fighters, high techs, 75+ manpower and good defensive lines (and most impotantly reserves behind the front), i think i can block the Russians for most of the game.
After all, ive seen the master at doing this, Joe Rock!
Doing that should be beneficial to the german war effort since for most of the now to end of 1942 i could concentrate on building up stuff for other fronts, like France and the MED. If i dont go offensive in russia in 1942, then i can crush the allied landings that Moriss will surely attempt. Once that is achieved, there is no limit to what i can do with a Fortress Europa.
the key here will be to keep air superiority thru the game. In russia it will be most easy, but in France it will need some work. That is why as soon as the main emergency is passed on the Russian front i will start building fighters. If i can cover my brave troops sufficiently in 1942, then the allies have no chance.
But then thats just planning. Like you say he might spend all his offensive power in the winter trying to break my defensive line and i might just be left with no choice but plunge forward with what might be the game decider.
Wait till you see next turn. My defensive "V" position in the south makes for a dangerous place to be for Moriss when the Spring come as i could foresee a gigantic Kursk in the making.
Well, you make all good points, but i think that while my situation is solid, i cant do all those things. With my oil, ressources and Moriss agresiveness, i cant go for half measure and MOST IMPORTANTLY cannot get caught on any of the 2 main fronts with my pants down. If that happens the game will be short-lived.
The techs will be ky here. With the beating the brits got in 40-41 i should think that their troops will be shitty at best, and its probably not like Moriss invested a ton of research in them. So i will invest all i can into Armor and INF and get that as high as possible.
The oil situation will not get better over time, but if i keep a defensive mindset i think i can manage the precious liquid properly.
In russia, it remains to be seen what kind of stance i will take once the spring hits the country. Since Moriss will probably be retreating anyway, i think i shall only follow him but not get involved into any hardpitch battle. With enough fighters, high techs, 75+ manpower and good defensive lines (and most impotantly reserves behind the front), i think i can block the Russians for most of the game.
After all, ive seen the master at doing this, Joe Rock!
Doing that should be beneficial to the german war effort since for most of the now to end of 1942 i could concentrate on building up stuff for other fronts, like France and the MED. If i dont go offensive in russia in 1942, then i can crush the allied landings that Moriss will surely attempt. Once that is achieved, there is no limit to what i can do with a Fortress Europa.
the key here will be to keep air superiority thru the game. In russia it will be most easy, but in France it will need some work. That is why as soon as the main emergency is passed on the Russian front i will start building fighters. If i can cover my brave troops sufficiently in 1942, then the allies have no chance.
But then thats just planning. Like you say he might spend all his offensive power in the winter trying to break my defensive line and i might just be left with no choice but plunge forward with what might be the game decider.
Wait till you see next turn. My defensive "V" position in the south makes for a dangerous place to be for Moriss when the Spring come as i could foresee a gigantic Kursk in the making.
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Diplomaticus
- Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
- Posts: 447
- Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:10 pm
I would again emphasize the advantages of sealing off the Med at the choke points of Gibraltar and Suez. Right now he doesn't have enough units in the entire Mediterranean theater to do anything much. If you can keep it that way by preventing him from transporting any more forces into the Med, you save yourself from having to protect a massive coastline. You have the tools to do this because you've already established control of the Atlantic.
By using your combined fleets to screen Gibraltar and the transport loops, that means all but a skeleton force is liberated from posts on the coast of the Med that can instead be used to shore up Fortress Europe.
By using your combined fleets to screen Gibraltar and the transport loops, that means all but a skeleton force is liberated from posts on the coast of the Med that can instead be used to shore up Fortress Europe.
Good point. And i agree. Its just that right now i cant spare the troops. The russian front is close to being stabilized. But it remains to be seen if i can musTervthe troops...Diplomaticus wrote:I would again emphasize the advantages of sealing off the Med at the choke points of Gibraltar and Suez. Right now he doesn't have enough units in the entire Mediterranean theater to do anything much. If you can keep it that way by preventing him from transporting any more forces into the Med, you save yourself from having to protect a massive coastline. You have the tools to do this because you've already established control of the Atlantic.
By using your combined fleets to screen Gibraltar and the transport loops, that means all but a skeleton force is liberated from posts on the coast of the Med that can instead be used to shore up Fortress Europe.
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Crazygunner1
- Major - 8.8 cm FlaK 36
- Posts: 959
- Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:13 pm
Don´t think he will have any trouble freeing the encircled troops in the north, but it will defenitely slow his operations down. Good job Max!!! Looking real good.
It is really hard to counter the soviet mech blob, if they put science in the beginning on infantry, they are usually ahead of the germans and with the Gaurd units to support they are dangerous. In a game i am playing now i did an ok Barbarossa in 41 and in 42 i have resumed offensive in Russia with about 12 tanks 10 mechs and supporting inf and planes still experience difficulties along the front. The russian counter attacks are fierce and his tech superior Mechs just smash everything. I am finding it real hard to gain anything so far....
But i will see how things turn out before i pass any judgements
Crazyg
It is really hard to counter the soviet mech blob, if they put science in the beginning on infantry, they are usually ahead of the germans and with the Gaurd units to support they are dangerous. In a game i am playing now i did an ok Barbarossa in 41 and in 42 i have resumed offensive in Russia with about 12 tanks 10 mechs and supporting inf and planes still experience difficulties along the front. The russian counter attacks are fierce and his tech superior Mechs just smash everything. I am finding it real hard to gain anything so far....
But i will see how things turn out before i pass any judgements
Crazyg
If you don't plan on doing major offensives in 1942, then you could always transport some troops from the Eastern Front by rail to Italy and then move them to Africa. The real game-changer would be a successful massive offensive in the south in 1942 and a simultaneous attack in Africa. If you could reach the oil fields in the Caucasus and in Iraq, then with your current PP income you could transform the Axis into a massive monster with many armoured, air and mechanised units.
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Peter Stauffenberg
- General - Carrier
- Posts: 4745
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:13 pm
- Location: Oslo, Norway
I think that Morris started his offensive too early. It's still November 1941 and no severe winter. He should have moved into position before the severe winter and then strike when the Germans drop in efficiency. Now his armor units are depleted and far down in efficiency. Then they need repairs and rest to be usable.
Don't underestimate the severe winter because you drop 25 efficiency immediately, but you only regenerate to a efficiency at 20 below the formed max efficiency. So the Germans will be weakened for 5 or so turns.
Don't underestimate the severe winter because you drop 25 efficiency immediately, but you only regenerate to a efficiency at 20 below the formed max efficiency. So the Germans will be weakened for 5 or so turns.
It looks like Moriss is confused. You are probably doing way better than most of his opponents and everything, ranging from an early war in France, no Sea Lion, high land and naval Allied losses in the West and your relatively light casualties bodes well for your possibility of success. Also, I think that Moriss is at a disadvantage now, because he cannot use the RAF in he East.