Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.4

[jinxed75]

The scale of this mod is quite large, a single unit stands for hundreds of vehicles/guns and thousands of soldiers. And the Wehrmacht had only a limited number of those fancy stuff, the majority being the more boring towed guns and stuff like that. For example, while some 5,400 15 cm sFH 18 were produced, there were only 338 17 cm Kanone 18s. So in the game the player should have only one 17 cm Kannone for fifteen 15 cm sFH units to remain historically accurate as there were fifteen times more produced of the latter one. And there are only two 15 cm sFHs in the map in turn 1. Obviously, you do not have to remain historically accurate, and you can invest on the more fancy units, but then it costs a lot of prestige. Basically you can afford one or two of those fancy units, but only at the cost of purchasing other, more important units.

I see your point in case of the 17cm, after checking its stats. It is a really powerful weapon with a huge range. Then how about an upgrade path from 10.5 to 15 then? I somehow have to get to those 15 pieces of 15cm, after all
Also, you might consider to gift the player an occasional unit more or two. Otherwise there are just so many units which were employed in the war, but not in the game because I can't afford them. Like the Wurfrahmen, for example.

Actually, it is not neccessarily a good idea to upgrade all earlier Pz.I, Pz.II and Pz.35-38 to Pz.III and Pz.IV at once as those are only marginally better in 1941. Historically those earlier models remained in use well into 1943 even if not in the first line but for example in anti-partisan duties or in secondary, support role. In game they can be used behind the newer types to finish off weakened units or to attack infantry in the open or such. Uhu wrote a nice assesstment of the earlier panzers and their possible uses in the mod:

Oh, I didn't do that in '41. There I went on with what I had at my disposal, and it was fine. But with the increasing numbers of T34s over the course of '42 I just felt the need to come up with something that might give me the means of striking back.
It worked out well for '42, until Winter and the T34/43 and big numbers of KV1s came up.

Same goes for the Bf-109 -> Fw-190 upgrade, during my playtests I only upgraded one Bf-109 in France when it becomes available and then two more later in the Eastern front, when I had the prestige. Historically, the two were used simultaneously until the end of the war, the first Fw-190 unit in the East was only raised in August 1942.

I think the basic problem is that most players got used to the fact that they can always upgrade to the latest stuff while playing the official campaigns. However, that is very unhistorical as those obsolete types were used for much longer and in most cases together with the newest ones, until they were worn out or were destroyed. There was no pension age for tanks in ww2.

Again, like before, I didn't do that the moment the units became available. I went on with the one Fw190 squad for quite a while. But then bigger numbers of better Spitfires began to appear, and my 109s just took one hell of a beating. Upgrading then seemed to be cheaper, than to have constantly reinforce smacked down 109 squads.

It might be a good idea to cover the more important tanks visible to the enemy from the air with some fighter planes. If there is a fighter above or on an adjacent hex of a tank at the end of the Axis turn chances are high that the AI will not attack it from the air fearing the defensive fire provided by the fighter. Historically those Il-2s were quite effective against unprotected tank columns at and after Kursk especially when using the small PTAB bombs of which each plane could carry nearly 200.

Well, I just don't have a big enough fighter force anymore. With all those Tacs, also a big spam of YAKs happened, and they sure like ganging up on a unit until it is gone.
I went into the winter of 42/43 with 4 german 109 squads + 2 110s + the minor axis planes who had served me really well so far. But that didn't last for long.
The astoundingly big presence of additional british air forces over the russian skies certainly didn't help either

The Bf-110 was not an effective tank destroyer, however, the Ju-87G and the Hs-129 were. And these have comparable ground attack stats to the Il-2s.

Stukas need protection I couldn't provide anymore, and what's a Hs-129? Ah, must be one of those concept units I couldn't afford

It might be true, but the Axis also has a few of those U-boats, isn't it?

Sure, how do you think I got rid of the british naval presence in the Mediterranian? Still, It was just a funny observation seeing a Destroyer faring so badly against a sub.

As for the those "some colony forces", for example there were the Nepali Ghurkas, who were one of the finest Allied units, and even the news of their arrival to a frontline was enough for some battle hardened German units to start to shake in fear. Not only the Wehrmacht had elite units.


I think it is only true for the first half of the war. With the Germans suffering losses constantly, they had to replace the well trained veterans with green troops. And then in the end they just simply ran out of men and were forced to recruite boys and the elderly to fill the ranks. And those two star Soviet units only start to appear in the second half of the war. By that time the Red Army had improved its training and doctrine greatly, and as a result the margin between the quality of German and Soviet units became smaller and smaller.

Well, the stars are meant to represent actual combat experience. In case of the Ghurkas you can just assign higher base values to their units, rather than amounts of exp they can't possibly have acquired. As for the Red Army, I do not think any training should get you to 2 stars. There's only so much you can learn at an academy, and for sure not within the span of a single year. That progression seems insane to me. So yeah, one star to represent training *might* be plausible, but anything beyond that should be earned on the battlefield. Remember, if *I* buy a unit, it comes with *0* stars.
Also, that would hamper your habit to shamelessly abuse these EXP-ratings to overstrenghten all those units accordingly
Against my proclaimed intentions, I continued playing a couple of turns more, until T50. And well, it is really insane what you are coming up with There is a red carpet of doom basically spanning from Kursk to Stalingrad. After the huge wave of T34s and KV1s and Inf, there is a large number of ATs, STR12 artillery and on top of that a good handful of those frickin insane Su-152s.
That doesn't feel like Summer '43, more like late '44, and that is with me having Moscow occupied since Sep 42, and Leningrad encircled and cut off for a good amount of time. An ingame message mentioned this should have an impact on russian production capabilities, yet I don't really see that reflected on the map.

In the end, I would strongly recommend you to read the two latest ongoing AARs, written by other first time players:

I have read them. Jimmy's able to pull off things I'm just not. Just going by the screenshots I see lots of top notch equipment, and prestige numbers hovering between 4 and 6k.
The other AAR seems to be more in line with my own experience, although I thought not overstretching myself in Russia would help me, which it did not in the end.

[JimmyC]

@ jinxed - what difficulty level are you playing on? Maybe try it on an easier setting. Also, did you do the earlier campaigns and save up a lot of prestige? I found that i came into the game with much prestige from the earlier scenarios and also the extra units that you bring from that (i think i brought 2 fighter, 3 tanks and 2 artillery). Another tactic is to focus on capturing the objectives that give you the big +1,500 boost to prestige. This is a great help.

**SPOILER ALERT**
If you know what happens historically, then you can plan around that. For example, you dont have to base any ground forces in Western Europe (apart from AA) as the AI won't attack there until Overlord. And in North Africa, you can know the timing of Crusader, Operation Torch, El Alamein, etc. Also, the Russians always seem to counterattack fiercely in winter. For all such events, you want to position your troops on the defensive in close terrain, supported by artillery and AA where possible. Then have some tanks or AT ready to finish off units that are weakened or break through. I find this is key - knowing when to be defensive and aggressive.
**END SPOILER**

Personally, i find that the upgrade path works pretty well now. 10.5cm artillery is also quite useful vs infantry, so i can roll with it not having an upgrade path. The only thing i wish is for some of the minor Axis artillery to have an upgrade tree. Some of it is so hopeless and even the better models dont seem to be worth the cost. But you just have to work around it i suppose.

Be sure to check out Uhu's thread about tips for this mod. I read it before playing and it gave me a great help!

[JimmyC]

Just 1 last thing - i also struggle with keeping destroyers alive (particularly in the Med), whilst it is relatively easy to keep the Italian capital ships alive. And as jinxed says, the destroyers perform badly vs British subs, which makes it really tricky. I request some way to purchase a new destroyer or get given one (similar to subs). Perhaps you could get given a 1 strength destroyer and have to repair it if you want to use it (like the aircraft carrier)?

[jinxed75]

@Jimmy

I'm playing on Colonel, so I'm already at an easier setting, than McGuba has it supposedly designed for. Yes, I've played the opening scenarios. Wasn't able to get DVs for the 2nd and the 3rd, though. Don't know if it's making a big difference on the prestige gained. Btw, I absolutely loathed the invasion of the Lowlands and France. That wasn't playing a game of strategic warfare, it was playing Unit Tetris Less units on both sides would have been more fun, imo(or just a bigger map, I think for the scale of the mod, the map is way too small).
I don't remember exactly how much prestige I had when the actual game started, I think it was around 2-3k. But it got me 3 P4 Ds, 3 109s, 2 SIGs and a 15cm with experience thankfully.
As for historical knowledge, I do have some That's why I did't even bother for taking Tobruk, and wasting resources. Instead I turteld around Benghazi, and fought the Brits off there. Not evacuating all my forces to Tunis, and trying to make a stand off with the Italian infantry without tank & 88 support was a mistake, I'd not do again, if were to replay at some time.
As for Russia, well I know, too. Initially, I thought, I was doing quite well. I took Smolensk, Kiev, Dnepopretrovsk, Chrakov and Odessa by Turn 10, closed the pocket around Kiev by Turn 12. I decided, it would be far too risky to go for Moscow as well, seeing how well fortified it was. I really have no idea how you were able to breach its defenses so swiftly, especially seeing what a pain it was to deal with Gomei.
So I settled with my achievements, and prepared for the counterattack. Joe was mainly trying to strike from Moscow, and with the terrain around Smolensk favoring me, it was a rather easy job to repel him, and to go for Moscow in the following spring. As he didn't want to stop throwing units at me, taking Moscow took me 3 or 4 turns longer than I had hoped for. Still, I was able to prepare the siege of Leningrad at the same time, and prepare my defenses along Kursk-Charkov-Dnepo, I thought.
The problem is just the massiveness of the counterstrike, easily 2 or even 3 times the magnitude of last conteroffense, with much better units, striking on mostly open terrain.
While it is *relatively* quiet around Moscow, it all coming from the Stalingrad direction this time. And south of Kursk, other than the cities itself, there isn't much terrain that would allow my Inf to be effective. And the vast numerical superiority of the attacking together with the better unit values makes a corps of 8 or 9 Pz3/4 seem bigger than it is.
I just wasn't able to sustain resistance for too long. When I had replenish, the Red Army just sent a second wave of fresh units.
The attack force for Summer 43 looks this

1st wave

- approx 15-20 Tanks, T34/43, KV1 + a variety of western allied material and some older russian designs
- 174 or even 175 Inf units of all sorts, maybe even 176 units with nasty SMG units, a lot of them experienced and on overstrength.
- 12-16 YAKs and IL-2s, difficult to keep count and estimate here. Suffice to say, my air forces got reduced fairly quick

2nd wave

- a lot of AT (as messaged ingame), and big ugly 12STR artilleries covering them, out of reach for my units.

3rd wave

- again T34/43, KV1s and to make the nightmare complete, a good number of SU-152, who either wreck my units in artillery mode, or in direct combat.

Basically, I'd need to fall back to Poland already, and even that wouldn't save me.
What I was also wondering, how can one achieve air superiority over GB, and so early? I was busy enough cleaning the Bomber spam over my own lands

[Philwd]

Hi Jinxed,
I finished this mod once on Field Marshall. I also played the preliminary scenarios and came in with a bit of prestige. One thing that really helped me early was taking Malta(taking Malta significantly reduces the RAF in the desert). Gave 1500 prestige that I used to upgrade pz1 and 2 in Russia( I did not follow Uhu's advice here. I used other minor axis forces to fight the partisans). Those extra tanks allowed me to rush Moscow and defend it during the winter. I took Moscow on turn 12 or 13. There is little in front of it that early but the push caused me to not close the Kiev pocket and I had to really rush during the winter there to repel the counterattack. And those extra upgraded tanks allowed me to keep pushing and take out the extra Russian forces piecemeal BEFORE they activated and came at me en masse. Same for the airforce. I never got overwhelmed with tons of Yaks. Just 3-4 at a time. Whittle them down with flak then finish them off. I found even the minor axis fighters when upgraded to 109G's etc were effective until late in the war.
In the desert I defeated Crusader with the 88 etc and then enveloped Tobruk. Then pushed to El Alamein and used the Italian navy to wear them down. Eventually took the forts just before Torch started.

I also managed to slowly whittle down the mines protecting Leningrad and used the Baltic navy to then demolish the flak and artillery there. Then it was really easy to take the city in '42 and push on.

I never did find the prestige to upgrade more than 1 artillery. Planes and tanks had priority. I did upgrade to get one Wurframmen. That REALLY came in handy against the entrenched infantry.

I found upgrading the planes in France to FW190s and then using the new arrivals there I easily held off the allies until well into 43. After that it got significantly tougher. I found a couple spots they ALWAYS attacked and placed flak there to help whittle them down. I did not attempt to invade England and instead placed my tanks inland off the beaches and had fun during D-Day. My navy prioritized the big Allied tanks and sank them before they landed.

I did mess up the battle for the Atlantic. I know what to do differently now.

This mod allows you to try various strategies. I went for a more traditional approach first play through. Next time I may try an early rush for the Caucasus oilfields and invade England.

Hope this helps,
Phil

[JimmyC]

As Philwd said, its important to get Malta early, to stop Allied air units spawning. You also get 1,500 prestige from it, which is good value as you likely suffer very little damage in the process.

Regarding Tobruk, i was initially of the same opinion as you - ie. its not worth the repair costs you are likely to suffer in order to take it. Its also relatively easy to take it if you have a little patience. The key is to gain naval superiority in the med and then to bring down the Italian capital ships. They are great at reducing entrenchment of the defenders and make it much easier to capture! And Tobruk area is much easier to defend against Operation Crusader and the following El Alamein offensive. I can't see any other good defensive position apart from there if you want to hold back Monty's forces.

As for rushing Moscow, its not that hard. You just have to pick and choose your fights and carefully plan out your moves. Some of the Russian infantry are static and won't leave their bunkers (especially the conscripts). So you can just ignore them. Recon are also good as they can squirm through even if there are zones of control exerted by enemy units. They are also good for scouting out the best approach route so as to avoid defenders. Just be sure to make a bee-line to Moscow with your main force and leave the mopping up to your support troops further behind.

As for prestige and the earlier campaigns, i was really stingy, never reinforcing the non-core units and only elite reinforcing my core forces in the setup phase. I also got a DV on all of them (although France was very close to MV), so it meant i came into Barbarossa with a really large prestige pool. I will have to check, but it was about 5,000 i think. By the way, i love your description of France as tetris! So true until you can break through! And then you get the joys of mud to slow you down!

<Edited to remove reference to gaining 1,500 prestige for Tobruk, which is wrong>.

[jinxed75]

Phil,

thanks for the tips. Disposing the mines in the baltic sea, so that you can use your fleet to speed up the siege on Leningrad is a great idea I didn't have. It gives my surface fleet some purpose after all. I really didn't know what to do with those ships, so I tried some convoy raids with them, which turned out to be a subpar idea. Only due the mercy of the RNG, I was able to make it out there in one piece, more or less.
As for Moscow, I think my problem was, that I've directed my main body of the panzer forces to Kiev, since the terrain there favored them more and would allow me to cover enough ground to reach the Chrakov-Kursk line. What I didn't know at the time were the defenses around Gomei. In order to make the encirclement happen, I had to direct the few panzers from my north group to Gomei. So, that took Moscow out of the question for the first winter.
As for the trenches, I upgraded two of my Pz1/2s to Pz2 Flamm. Worked well, too, no idea if it would have been better to use that money for a Wurfrahmen.

Jimmy,

Tobruk gains you 1500? Damn... Other than that, and my mistake of splitting my Africa Corps with the beginning of Torch, I didn't so so badly there. Malta fell in Summer 42, after I sunk the british carriers and battleship. I have 4 squads of Folgore planes + the 109, and the skies are mine, and the sea, too. Well, except for the subs I can't get a hold on, because I lost my italian TAC Bombers due to carelessness.
As for the France invasion yeah, it was such a mess. During the deployment I placed my core forces in the Ardennes in the wrong order. These 2 or 3 impassable hexes there then completely made the quick strike through Sedan a no-show
So I did it by playing Tetris cleverly in the Lowlands and forcing lots of surrenders. I then somehow thought I was right on track for a DV. Just get to Brest in time, and I'm done...when I suddenly realized while scrolling over the map, that I had to take Bordeaux, too
Regarding the prestige, it must have been the DVs. I did reinforce some troops over the course of the missions, but only green, so I don't think I spent more than 300-500 on it.

[McGuba]

What I was also wondering, how can one achieve air superiority over GB, and so early?

I think it is only possible if you try it early, during 1942 before the Brits come up with the Spit IX as an answere to the Fw-190. And, yeah, you need at least 3-4 Fw-190s, upgraded from experienced Bf-109s, preferably with good heroes, and transfered from the East.

By the way, the only reason why someone would want to achieve air superiority over GB is an attempted Operation Sea Lion - the invasion of England. If you do not want to start it, it is better just to defend over mainland Europe where you can benefit from the AA guns and radar umbrella.

Regarding Tobruk, i was initially of the same opinion as you - ie. its not worth the repair costs you are likely to suffer in order to take it. However i changed my mind and was pleasantly surprised to get another 1,500 prestige from it.

AFAIK there is no prestige award for Tobruk as this city has no AI zone. I think you got that prestige award for something else. Other than that I agree with you, it can provide better defenses if taken.

Currently the following prestige awards are added (if played on 100% player prestige):
England : 2000
North Africa and the Middle East: 1500
Malta: 1500
all victory objectives in the Soviet Union (without the Caucasus region): 2000
Caucasus: 1500
Moscow: 1500
Leningrad: 1500

It gives my surface fleet some purpose after all. I really didn't know what to do with those ships, so I tried some convoy raids with them, which turned out to be a subpar idea.

Historically the Germans did pretty much the same, they tried to catch the Allied convoys with their surface ships using them one by one at a time and as a result they lost most of them. In this way the Admiral Graf Spee, the Bismarck and the Scharnhorst were all sank and the Gneisenau was damaged. The Tirpitz also tried some unsuccessful attacks, but was later used for the defense of Norway against an Allied invasion which never came there. Finally, after repeated British efforts, it was sunk in its hiding place by Lancaster bombers in 1944.

So, to make it any better I would say the surface fleet should either be used all together against the convoy routes, or to support Sea Lion or kept in reserve for the D-day landings and try to attack it. These are all viable options and are up the general strategy.

As for Moscow, I think my problem was, that I've directed my main body of the panzer forces to Kiev, since the terrain there favored them more and would allow me to cover enough ground to reach the Chrakov-Kursk line. What I didn't know at the time were the defenses around Gomei. In order to make the encirclement happen, I had to direct the few panzers from my north group to Gomei. So, that took Moscow out of the question for the first winter.

Again, the Germans did exactly the same: instead of rushing to Moscow, the panzers were turned south to complete the encirclement of Kiev and by the time they restarted their offensive the weather had turned bad and they could not reach the Soviet capital before the counter-attack. Many historians (and contemporary German generals) believe that Moscow could have been taken easier earlier, as it was only lightly defended up until Oct-Nov 1941. However, in that case the encirclement of Kiev might not have happened and those forces could have attacked Army Group South. This choice problem is well simulated in the mod as it is very hard to both take Moscow and to encircle Kiev before the snowing and the Russian counter attack starts.

IMO it is better to reach Moscow (capture at least one victory objective hex) by turn 11 (before its defenses get stronger) and then somehow try to finish the encirlement of Kiev or fight back those units there than to leave Moscow for a later capture.

[jinxed75]

Historically the Germans did pretty much the same, they tried to catch the Allied convoys with their surface ships using them one by one at a time and as a result they lost most of them. In this way the Admiral Graf Spee, the Bismarck and the Scharnhorst were all sank and the Gneisenau was damaged. The Tirpitz also tried some unsuccessful attacks, but was later used for the defense of Norway against an Allied invasion which never came there. Finally, after repeated British efforts, it was sunk in its hiding place by Lancaster bombers in 1944.

I did it by using the complete fleet, Tirpitz included. The idea was to sink a lot of Destroyers to open a path for my subs again, and then bail out. At first it seemed to work out. I sank a pack of 5 Destroyers pretty far west upon detection in the first round. That made me too cocky, and i wanted more and stayed a turn longer. Baaaaad idea.
Royal Navy showed up with 2 Battleships, a Battlecruiser and various Heavy and Light Cruisers as well as more Destroyers.
I got incredibly lucky, as one of the Battleships fired at the Gneisenau(I think) and took 4 damage while only dealing two. The other Capital Ships targeted my Light Cruisers and one of my Heavy Cruisers first.
When it was my turn again, I checked the combat predictions and realized how superior their ships actually are. The Tirpitz at full strength only got even odds with a Heavy Cruiser like the Norfolk. That was kind of surprising.
So I focus-fired on the whittled down Battleship, sunk it and bailed the heck out, sacrificing my Light Cruisers and one Heavy Cruiser to make it happen.
So, my advise for others is, try such raids at your own peril. But I don't think it is worth the risk.
Phil's idea of using them in the Baltic sounds so much better.

IMO it is better to reach Moscow (capture at least one victory objective hex) by turn 11 (before its defenses get stronger) and then somehow try to finish the encirlement of Kiev or fight back those units there than to leave Moscow for a later capture.

I think next time, I'll just add some panzers more to the north group, to make both things happen. Jimmy did it too, after all. Having meta-knowledge about the enemy deployment seems to be essential.
Btw, can you eloborate on how the whole thing about capturing key locations like Moscow, and possible subsequent production/reinforcement penalties for the opponent works?
Taking Moscow in Sep 42 probably was too late to hamper them for the following winter. What are the deadlines you need to meet?

[Philwd]

Hi Jinxed,

Phil's idea of using them in the Baltic sounds so much better.

. Hope this idea helps. What I would do differently in the North Atlantic is to repair the ships in France then open a quick route through the destroyers to allow an invasion of Iceland (or is it Greenland. can't remember). Taking the airfield cripples Coastal Command and gives your Focke Wolf bomber a base to take out the destroyers. The ground forces for the invasion come from Norway. You may need to move some units from France or Germany to Norway to fight the partisans that will show up.

I did try and use the Sharnhorst etc ships against Torch and they did well against the British Gibraltor fleet. I may have just gotten lucky. Using the Baltic fleet against Leningrad gave the side benefit of getting them all to 2 stars and Tirpitz almost to 3 stars (I then used the fleet against Norwegian partisans to get Tirpitz to 3 stars). She could duel any British battleship then. I tried a raid on Scapa Flow for grins and did quite well. But the mines made an invasion at that point impossible.

-Phil

[McGuba]

I did it by using the complete fleet, Tirpitz included. The idea was to sink a lot of Destroyers to open a path for my subs again, and then bail out. At first it seemed to work out. I sank a pack of 5 Destroyers pretty far west upon detection in the first round. That made me too cocky, and i wanted more and stayed a turn longer. Baaaaad idea.
...

Thanks for sharing your experiencies. I have never tried this, and had no really an idea what would happen if I did so. However, that's why I placed a little warning in one of the early message boxes so that players should not be surprised if the German surface fleet entering the convoy routes result in a heavy Allied response. If I remember well, I set up those Allied warships in a way that the more German warships reach the convoy zone the more Allied ships would appear to attack them, but there is of course a limit. Players have to understand that it has to be like this, otherwise it would be just too easy to send all the surface ships to the convoy zone and from that time enjoy complete German naval supremacy in the North Atlantic and grab all the prestige with it until the last turn. This scenario is quite unlikely from a historical point of view as the British surface fleet was several times stronger than the German one and probably that's why the Germans did not try a Jütland style "all in" attack in WW2. They thought that one-two surface ships could evade the Royal Navy easier and wreck havoc with the convoys. They just did not take into account the superior British radars which were installed on most enemy ships. Also, they did not know about the breaking of the Enigma.

Even then, I am sorry for the demise of your ships, but I still think it might be possible to make it if supported by some bombers (tactical bombers can use the Graf Zeppelin and/or strategic bombers can use the airport at Iceland, if taken) and with several more U-boats. Your tactic, i.e. to sink the destroyers with the surface fleet, sounds viable as after that the surface fleet could withdraw and then the U-boats and the bombers could damage or sink the enemy warships. Timing is also an essence here, as if you do in too late (now I do not remember the dates) then you have to face some American warships as well and the enemy air activity is also increasing in the area with time. I am still not sure if it is possible to make it like that, but theoretically it might be. And also there is the dice roll factor which might make a difference.

Btw, can you eloborate on how the whole thing about capturing key locations like Moscow, and possible subsequent production/reinforcement penalties for the opponent works?

For example if you take Moscow, several Soviet reinforcement units would not appear (mainly after mid-late 1942) from that point which would appear otherwise. Now it would take a lot of time to count how many units are affected by the capture of each key objective, but I can surely say that the Caucasus oil fields count the most (and because of the reduced oil supplies it mainly affects aircraft and tanks) with Moscow being second (loss of population, industries, plus morale effect, it mainly affects infantry, but also some tanks and aircraft) and Leningrad third (same as with Moscow, but to a lesser extent). If you can take all three the Soviets will still get some reinforcements, but just a friction of the full amount. Maybe like 1/5 or 1/4 of all the units who would appear otherwise from that point. Obviously as the Ural (and the spawning points where most Soviet units appear) are quite far from the frontline, it takes some time to take effect as those units which appeared before the capture of a key objective might already be on their way to the front.

Howver, there are a few Soviet units which would only appear if any of these three are captured and that contingent will try to recapture it immediately. But these units should be defeated relatively easily given that the player does not leave the newly conqured key objective empty or too lightly defended.

Also note that Land Lease equipment (British and American tanks and aircraft) are not affected at all by the capture of Soviet key objectives as they arrive from abroad as war aid.

This is supposed to be a balanced and "fair" system as obviously capturing those key objectives are not easy so the player is most likely lose a few units and prestige in the process. This is compensated by the less enemy units appearing after that and by the prestige award. The oil fields are more essential, though, as they also provide a continuous flow of prestige until being held by the Axis. However, taking the Caucasus inevitably creates a longer frontline which is harder to hold, so again the pros and cons should be in more or less balance. At least theoretically.

The whole thing behind this seemingly meticulous balancing is that I did not want to make just one possible solution for beating the mod and winning the war. I think it is much more interesting to experiment with different strategies and to my most surprise people came up with strategies I originally did not even think of (e.g. capturing Iceland or crossing the Black Sea to reach the Caucasus).

Taking Moscow in Sep 42 probably was too late to hamper them for the following winter. What are the deadlines you need to meet?

Unfortunately the 1942 winter offensive is not really affected by the capture of any of the key objectives as most of those enemy units involved are already on the map from early on, waiting patiently on the other side of the Don, they can be spotted and reconnoitred as soon as the German army gets there. However, all the units that appear before or after it as reinforcements in the Ural can be affected. It is supposed to simulate the fact that the USSR had enough supplies and resources to fight for at least one year, even if one or more key objective are taken during that time. So the Stalingrad offensives cannot be avoided.

[JimmyC]

My bad regarding Tobruk. I thought i got 1,500 from it, but obviously not. I have corrected my above post.

Also checked and on starting Barbarossa on General after getting DV's on the prior campaigns and having been super stingy, i had 5,800 prestige, plus the troops i brought from those campaigns (3 tanks, 2 artillery and 2 fighters i think).

IMO it is better to reach Moscow (capture at least one victory objective hex) by turn 11 (before its defenses get stronger) and then somehow try to finish the encirlement of Kiev or fight back those units there than to leave Moscow for a later capture.

I think next time, I'll just add some panzers more to the north group, to make both things happen. Jimmy did it too, after all. Having meta-knowledge about the enemy deployment seems to be essential.

Although i did it, i didn't finally capture Moscow until Feb or March i think. But i did reach and capture parts of it in December. I then gave up ground or advanced depending the tactical situation. The Russians are crazy to recapture it so will send their KV1's and other tanks into the city hexes. It worked very well for me to lure them into these hexes so i could deal with them with my infantry. Even if i had wanted to though, i couldn't have captured Moscow before the counterattack commenced. But having a foothold in the city and bypassing all those defenses was a great help.

Phil,
thanks for the tips. Disposing the mines in the baltic sea, so that you can use your fleet to speed up the siege on Leningrad is a great idea I didn't have. It gives my surface fleet some purpose after all. I really didn't know what to do with those ships, so I tried some convoy raids with them, which turned out to be a subpar idea. Only due the mercy of the RNG, I was able to make it out there in one piece, more or less.

As I went for Sea Lion, I used my surface fleet heavily for that. But if I hadn’t gone for that option, I really have no idea what I would have used them for. Based on the above discussion, it sounds like it probably isn’t worth sending them to the convoy routes. After all, you only get 50 prestige for each unit on a convoy route and yet repairing 1 strength on a battleship also costs 50 prestige. So when you think about it that way, it sounds like more a drain on resources than a help. I really like Phil’s idea of using them on partisans (and the Russians around Leningrad) so they can increase their experience. I imagine it would also allow Leningrad to be taken much quicker too.

What I was also wondering, how can one achieve air superiority over GB, and so early?

By the way, the only reason why someone would want to achieve air superiority over GB is an attempted Operation Sea Lion - the invasion of England. If you do not want to start it, it is better just to defend over mainland Europe where you can benefit from the AA guns and radar umbrella.

This is a really good point. From a cost/benefit perspective and if you are not going for Sea Lion, I would even suggest just having 2 Fw’s in Western Europe to take down already weakened bombers. Leave the rest to your AA. Sure, you’ll lose 50 or 100 prestige every so often. But just the cost to repair your FW’s is probably 50 prestige for 1 strength point if you are going for experienced replacements. So its not really worth attacking the enemy if you are going to suffer damage. I also found that the AI bombers tend to attack certain spots (particularly that fortification in the North), so you can just position a couple of flak units to cover these points and will be able to do quite a bit of damage, as the AI tends to attack regardless of the odds in these cases.

[demyansk]

I am downloading the mod 1.5, I forgot, where do I unzip this file into again?

Also, do I get rid of the old 1.3 version?

Thanks

By the way, I tried on my own and did this

I dragged the mod1.5 into my slitherine mods folder where the other versions were located. I then activated the 1.5 mod and it looks like it works. Is this correct?

I had to resize
I had a picture of a Polish plane labeled as a 12 cm Morser?

[hugh2711]

you indicated the caucasus is worth 1500 points. please could you indicate exactly what area or victory hexes, cities etc constitutes the caucasus

[BiteNibbleChomp]

you indicated the caucasus is worth 1500 points. please could you indicate exactly what area or victory hexes, cities etc constitutes the caucasus

McGuba:

A use for the labels I posted earlier

If you haven't already, feel free to pinch the Stations layer from WWI v2.0 or 2.1 and use that to create 'borders' on the map. I have found this extremely useful in both WWI and Rome (especially Rome, where I need to define province limits when there are so few cities!)

- BNC

[McGuba]

I am downloading the mod 1.5, I forgot, where do I unzip this file into again?

It is recommended to use JSGME for an easy installation. There is a step-by-step install guide in the readme files which are in the zip (Battlefield Europe Readme.txt and Battlefield Europe Readme.doc)

Also, do I get rid of the old 1.3 version?

Yeah, the latest version is always a stand alone one, you do not need to keep the earlier version.

I dragged the mod1.5 into my slitherine mods folder where the other versions were located. I then activated the 1.5 mod and it looks like it works. Is this correct?

If you used JSGME as described in the readme files it should be..

I had a picture of a Polish plane labeled as a 12 cm Morser?

I guess something is not right with your installation as Polish planes should have normal name. Weird.

you indicated the caucasus is worth 1500 points. please could you indicate exactly what area or victory hexes, cities etc constitutes the caucasus

All Soviet victory objective cities south of the Rostov (137,51) - Asrakhan (156-49) line. Which in effect means all objective cities just north and south of the Caucasus mountains. Note that these are only get designated as victory objective cities at early 1942, around turn 18 or something like that.

In the next version of the mod I will add these cities a marker to make things easier.

A use for the labels I posted earlier

Thanks, I have tried them, but for some reason I found them a bit distracting as I ended up always reading those country names even though I knew exactly where I was. I think I might still add them as an alternative install for those people with less geographical knowledge of the old continent.

If you haven't already, feel free to pinch the Stations layer from WWI v2.0 or 2.1 and use that to create 'borders' on the map. I have found this extremely useful in both WWI and Rome (especially Rome, where I need to define province limits when there are so few cities!)

Thanks, but in this mod national borders are less important as the player is already at war war with the allied countries in turn 1 so it does not make any difference if he crosses a border. Still, I might do it for a later version of the mod, but mainly for flavour.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

If you haven't already, feel free to pinch the Stations layer from WWI v2.0 or 2.1 and use that to create 'borders' on the map. I have found this extremely useful in both WWI and Rome (especially Rome, where I need to define province limits when there are so few cities!)

Thanks, but in this mod national borders are less important as the player is already at war war with the allied countries in turn 1 so it does not make any difference if he crosses a border. Still, I might do it for a later version of the mod, but mainly for flavour.

Well you don't necessarily have to use them for national borders - certain regions can have lines to indicate where their zones begin and end. In 280 BC 'countries' (often tribes) didn't follow the borders Rome used for them later on, but in the mod they do. So the Caucasus can have a line marking the gap between Rostov and Astrakhan, along with a label saying 'Caucasus', making it very easy for everyone to know exactly what section of cities are needed.

But overall, it's your mod, so do what you like! (I should take that approach seriously and give Rome nukes!)

- BNC

[GeneralWerner]

Funny, I detected this topic only after my first play through

But is gives me the chance to throw in an idea for discussion. Something that I am missing in Panzer General and Panzer Corps from the very first beginning. (may be in the first 50 pages somebody already announced this idea, I have not red them)

Planning is clearly an important step before you make an attack. But for planning I need intelligence results and that is something not really provided by PG or PC.

I make my example from my first play through. The occupation of the Caucasus. The idea was to go this way and the guess was that this area is weaker defended because it is "far" away from the main attack direction to Moscow. But I could not check. No intelligence about this area was available. The scout units can only see something very near to their position. And sending fighters a long way to spy is not the duty of fighters (not to talk about the long snowy winters).

So if there would have been an intelligence unit that can go behind the enemy lines in an area that may be a strategic target soon I would use it to get an overview and to be able to plan the used troops for the upcoming attack in a better way. I often had learned that I have sent my troops in the right direction but I sent too few or I sent too many (that are then missing somewhere else).

With intelligence I would have seen that the Grosny airport is heavily defended (ok, we better make no airdrop there and Oberst Steiner has a relaxing day somewhere else), the city not so much, but the mountains south and west of Grosny are covered with a lot of infantry ( so may be better to avoid the road in the west and try to reach Grosny via the eastern road). And may be I would have even detected the strong tank divisions south of the Volga River that for sure have to be handled if I want to invade the Caucasus (should take some more anti tank units with me).

How could this look like in the game theoretically. I have two possible ideas.

1) Uncover a huge area on the map for one round
A land-based "spy" unit (that can also use ships or planes) with strength one can move behind the enemy lines. If it touches the control zone of an enemy unit there is a chance that the spy unit is destroyed. At the right position the spy unit stops and stays there (starting to spy an area). The longer the unit stays at its position the more intelligence results can be gathered. Then if the time is right I ask the spy unit for the results switching from spy-mode to deliver-result-mode. For one round the area around the spy is uncovered. The longer the unit was spying (entrenchment-level?) the larger the uncovered area is. I can see what troops are currently in the area and can plan the size of my attack better. After that round the spy could be disbanded (has done its job).

2) Using a moving spy
In difference to idea one the spy has always to move around to gather information. He has only spotting one to two, so has to move a lot to cover the area (always with the statistical chance to be caught and destroyed if he touches enemy units). This is of course more work for the player to move this unit in each step but you would get results immediately. Nevertheless I would prefer the first concept with the "static" spy.

I think this could extend the game with a new interesting dimension (and in fact human intelligence was an important factor in WW2).

[demyansk]

Yes, for some reason after the 1.5 install and possibly the earlier versions some of the units had the wrong names. Some of the polish units were called Bunkers.

I wonder what it could be? I use the generic loader for the campaigns

[JimmyC]

Funny, I detected this topic only after my first play through

Haha. Now you know how i did so well. Because i followed these threads and picked up many valuable tips! Also, if you didn't know it, there is a rather excellent "tips for playing Battlefield Europe" thread by Uhu here http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=55486

Planning is clearly an important step before you make an attack. But for planning I need intelligence results and that is something not really provided by PG or PC.

I like the idea, but i guess that it could not be implemented in the current version of the game. A cheap fix would be to have a few 1 strength units in the Russian hinterland that would then be killed after the first turn.