Pike Testing Workshop

[Schweetness101]

so with these v1.2 mod changes:

1) remove +50 to lancers vs steady pikes on impact if they initiate the charge (they still get +100 lancers if pikes initiate)
2) removed +50 mounted swordsmen poa that cataphracts (but not other lancers) got vs steady pikes in melee
3) pikes get +100 poa when charging mounted shock troops if they are not disrupted or disordered at all, but otherwise 0

we get these results:

v1.2 so far pikes vs lancers

vs cataphracts:

Impact:

pikes initiating charge:
pikes +100
cata: Lancers +100, quality +50
net: cata +50 (same as vanilla)

and lancers charging:
pikes +125
cata: quality +50
net: pikes +75 (25 less than vanilla)

Melee:

open ground, cata steady and pikes steady:
pikes: +100
cata: armor + 100, quality + 50
net poa: cata + 50 ( 50 more than vanilla, but because of manpower diff w/ pikes at 960 this still gives decent
advantage to the pikes, just not as much as in vanilla, perhaps justified by lower cost of pikes now, also will
still be at huge advantage vs non cataphract lancers in melee)

pikes disordered:
pikes: +50
cata: swordsmen +100, armor + 100, quality + 50
net: cata +200 (50 more than vanilla, somewhat inkeeping with theme of mod that pikes are proportionally worse off now when disordered)

thoughts?

[Schweetness101]

updated OP with v1.2 link

Additional v1.2 changes:

1) Pikes will now follow up/pushback as they should if they win (and are considered shock troops always regardless of losses)
2) Increased back to 960 man pikes
3) Lowered armor back to protected
4) removed +50 Lancer (light and heavy) poa vs steady pikes on impact that Lancers initiate (still 100 if pikes initiate)
5) removed the extra +50 swordsmen poa that cataphracts get vs pikes in melee
6) pikes get 100 poa when charging mounted shock troops if they are not disrupted or disordered at all (as opposed to 0 before),
but otherwise 0, this brings back their delta vs lancers to same as vanilla if they initiate charge while steady against lancers,
but lower if the pikes are disrupted

*still considering altering or removing 4 and 5 above and doing something else to rebalance pikes and lancers

[76mm]

I've not followed this thread very closely, but I play phalanx armies on a regular basis and get pretty frustrated with two common events with pike units:
1) double-dropping on impact or in melee against very mediocre opponents. While some claim that this is "very rare", in my experience it happens rather often with phalanx units at least. This is one of my pet peeves...
2) pike units chasing (and often catching) skirmishers. Beyond the seeming unlikelihood of a phalanx actually catching an evading light foot unit (really, don't think this should EVER happen, unless maybe the skirmishers are pinned against another unit, etc), I have to think that a very fundamental part of phalanx training would be TO NOT CHASE skirmishers. Sure, "stuff happens" in combat, but that's why armies drill and train, to prevent units from doing dumb stuff like this--maybe inexperienced phalanxes should be susceptible to chasing, but not "average" quality and above...

Perhaps beyond the scope of your testing, but I wanted to vent a bit!

[Schweetness101]

I've not followed this thread very closely, but I play phalanx armies on a regular basis and get pretty frustrated with two common events with pike units:
1) double-dropping on impact or in melee against very mediocre opponents. While some claim that this is "very rare", in my experience it happens rather often with phalanx units at least. This is one of my pet peeves...
2) pike units chasing (and often catching) skirmishers. Beyond the seeming unlikelihood of a phalanx actually catching an evading light foot unit (really, don't think this should EVER happen, unless maybe the skirmishers are pinned against another unit, etc), I have to think that a very fundamental part of phalanx training would be TO NOT CHASE skirmishers. Sure, "stuff happens" in combat, but that's why armies drill and train, to prevent units from doing dumb stuff like this--maybe inexperienced phalanxes should be susceptible to chasing, but not "average" quality and above...

Perhaps beyond the scope of your testing, but I wanted to vent a bit!

1) so this mod decreases the cost of pikes and makes them less of fragile steamrollers, and rather a fixing force that decreases opponents POAs (especially impact foot are decreased vs steady pikes on impact, but others as well) and decreases vs steady pike combat casualties in order to drag out combat, while increasing vulnerability of pikes to rough terrain and flanking. On the whole then, it plays like pikes being less able to rout enemies all on their own, but more able to last a very long time so long as they are kept steady, BUT if they are disordered/disrupted/flanked they will very rapidly collapse. It really changes the nature of vs pikes matchups I think. I know you said you haven't followed the thread closely, but if you read the op it is updated with all of the changes.

2) I agree, and I think it would be nice if there was some kind of 'advance through skirmishers without attacking them/pursuing them' type of movement for infantry troops, ie driving them off by moving through where they are without charging. As contrasted with the current scenario where non light infantry are given the choice, when faced with a light infantry unit, of a) wildly chasing it who knows where, or b) just sitting there and receiving shots. Although, I suspect the idea here is to motivate you to bring your own skirmishers to deal with enemy skirmishers first, so perhaps the resolution for you here is a tactical/unit selection change.

[76mm]

It really changes the nature of vs pikes matchups I think. I know you said you haven't followed the thread closely, but if you read the op it is updated with all of the changes.

Yes, I've read the OP and the changes sound good, but I haven't read all of the intervening posts. That said, I'm not sure that they will resolve the double-drop problem, because usually it occurs on impact? I've had pike double-drop against irregular foot, etc. on open terrain, which just doesn't feel right to me.

On the other point, I was actually looking at it from the other perspective, that of the light foot--if my javelin men run up to the phalanx and let off a volley, I don't think it is realistic for the phalanx to "catch" them, which happens often enough.

[Schweetness101]

It really changes the nature of vs pikes matchups I think. I know you said you haven't followed the thread closely, but if you read the op it is updated with all of the changes.

Yes, I've read the OP and the changes sound good, but I haven't read all of the intervening posts. That said, I'm not sure that they will resolve the double-drop problem, because usually it occurs on impact? I've had pike double-drop against irregular foot, etc. on open terrain, which just doesn't feel right to me.

On the other point, I was actually looking at it from the other perspective, that of the light foot--if my javelin men run up to the phalanx and let off a volley, I don't think it is realistic for the phalanx to "catch" them, which happens often enough.

i think double drops happen if you lose a ct roll by a large enough margin. With casualties reduced and some ct changes, and reduced POAs for units charging pikes that should happen less often now, but there is always a random element

I think evasion and pursuit distances are something like the unit's base ap +- some random value within a certain range, so if you wanted you could perhaps set the minimum evasion distance of light infantry to always be greater than the pursuit distance of heavy infantry. Dunno how it would upset balance though.

[Schweetness101]

Pikes may be a bit too strong with the 960 man unit size and the above changes, even though I also dropped their armor back to protected, because of the power of the combat strength modifier. That, combined with reduced casualties, means they end up fighting at or close the full strength the whole game.

Any ideas on how to remedy this?

One is to increase the number that is considered 'full strength' for pikes specifically, so that they fall below it sooner, although that might just be a roundabout way of effectively lowering their unit size that would still be considered unacceptable.

Another is to reintroduce some poa loss from manpower losses, but not as much as before.

Another would be to actually mitigate casualties even more so that combat drags out even more and even with their combat strength modifier from 960 not much damage is being done

[Nosy_Rat]

That's kinda funny that proposed changes would make pikes very weak to medium foot spam, given the discussion in the nearby thread.

[Schweetness101]

That's kinda funny that proposed changes would make pikes very weak to medium foot spam, given the discussion in the nearby thread.

haha yeah, although if we combined it with the flank angle mod changes then pikes would not have such a weakness there again.

One potential solution to decrease the strength of the Pikes at 960 is make it so they begin taking losses to combat strength below 960 men (that is immediately on taking losses) rather than below 480 men like everyone else, and as an alternative to putting back in some loss to poa from manpower loss. However, I have received word that such a change would also not be acceptable to RBS.

Any other ideas?