Germans vs. italians in the core

[Zhivago]

Perhaps the Panzer General designers had it down right...Italians, and other Axis powers were just used as pre-placed aux units in each scenario. While idea of adding the military equipment of other nations to the German core, in practice, it's not fun or really feasible when the Germans are so much better. As was said earlier in this thread, people are attracted to WW2 games in order to play as the Germans, or Russians, or English, Americans, or Japanese. I don't think lots of people get jazzed by the idea of Italian Corps. I sure don't.

Perhaps there could be a way that the Germans would have their set "core" slots, and then have a half-dozen or so aux slots each scenario that could remain in as a separate aux core. Maybe at some point, if there is ever a tie-in between Afrika Corps and the DLC scenarios, a player could select two or three non-German axis military units to add to the standard German Corps if so desired.

[dthomas561]

I'm guilty of sacrificing my Italian units to get the German ones, however I cringed when the suggestion was made to limit the German core units. I know some may see this idea as a play on words but instead how about making a requied amount of core being Italian units? My fear is that limiting the German units may leave too many Italian units. Example...core force = 20 units, 3 of which MUST be Italian units (players choice). What I am afraid of is this scenario example core force = 20 units, MAX units 15 German, 5 Italian. I may not be getting my point across.
I know I like playing with a diversified / historical mix (somewhat), but like I said before I use them as a sacrifice soooooo..... I do like the idea of making them cheaper to make them more attractive. I also have NO problem with aux units as often times I will use them to tie up the enemy while I try a flanking move with my core force (at least I try ).

[Erik2]

I think the historically correct decision would be not to allow players to disband core units (make it a designer option).
After all, Rommel played the cards he was given. He could no decide to replace Italian units with German.

On a side note, personally I think over strength units are just fantasy. Replacements would fill a unit to max 100% in real life.

[Chris10]

After all, Rommel played the cards he was given. He could no decide to replace Italian units with German.

true this...and its not that he didnt tried

On a side note, personally I think over strength units are just fantasy. Replacements would fill a unit to max 100% in real life.

true not really that is...
the problem is that the allied/russian 100% max was not the german 100% max
German divisions were overstrengthed by design and in direct comparison had multiple times combat value of russian/allied divisions which were around 9000-11000 men...Its only natural that players have overstrength units
Regular Units
- Infantery Division : 16.860
- Positioned Infantery Division : 12.500
- Panzer-Gren.-Div: 14.950
- SS-Panzer-Gren-Div: 19.800
Particular examples:
- Pz-Division "Grossdeutschland": 22.500
- Gebirgsjäger "Gams-Division": 14.000
- 13. SS Waffen-Gebirgs-Division „Handschar“: 21.000
- 7. SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division „Prinz Eugen“: 22.500
obviously the list is pretty long so I just give some examples

[Erik2]

Re overstrength units.
I am aware that a division is not always a division...
But I would prefer the difference between unit TO&E strengths were solved in the equipment file.
Currently it gives players an advantage vs the AI in the campaigns They disband lesser-valued units, buy the most powerful and then make them up to 150% overstrength.
That is more Fantasy General IMO.
Guess I am a player that like PzC to be as historically correct within the simple and fun framework.
Long live the scenario editor!

[Chris10]

Re overstrength units.
I am aware that a division is not always a division...
But I would prefer the difference between unit TO&E strengths were solved in the equipment file.
Currently it gives players an advantage vs the AI in the campaigns They disband lesser-valued units, buy the most powerful and then make them up to 150% overstrength.
That is more Fantasy General IMO.
Guess I am a player that like PzC to be as historically correct within the simple and fun framework.
Long live the scenario editor!

well..I for example overstrength especially the lesser units in order to avoid getting them killed to quick the moment when they are exposed to multiple attacks...but you are right regarding disbanding lesser units...thats what this debate is about

[Razz1]

I think the Italian Artillery should be able to upgrade with a halftrack.

[Erik2]

I think the Italian Artillery should be able to upgrade with a halftrack.

In several scenarios (mostly Italian) artillery units have no transport at all.
And there is a long way to the nearest town (if any at all) where you can upgrade.
I would prefer to be able to upgrade units with transports on any map location.
After all, you only need to drive the transports to the unit, not haul the unit to the transports.

[IainMcNeil]

Its a long thread so not sure if this was suggested but what about making some German upgrades available in the Italian unit list but at later dates. E.g. the Germans let the Italians use their older obsolete equipment. It would mean a copy if the German unit with the same stats except a later start date. This would make the Italians worse than Germans but would maintain their level rather than have them fall continuously further behind as the Germans upgrade.

[zappel]

Its a long thread so not sure if this was suggested but what about making some German upgrades available in the Italian unit list but at later dates. E.g. the Germans let the Italians use their older obsolete equipment. It would mean a copy if the German unit with the same stats except a later start date. This would make the Italians worse than Germans but would maintain their level rather than have them fall continuously further behind as the Germans upgrade.

Yes, a good idea. Maybe it is not historical correct but for the non historical missions this will be a good solution.

[billmv44]

Its a long thread so not sure if this was suggested but what about making some German upgrades available in the Italian unit list but at later dates. E.g. the Germans let the Italians use their older obsolete equipment. It would mean a copy if the German unit with the same stats except a later start date. This would make the Italians worse than Germans but would maintain their level rather than have them fall continuously further behind as the Germans upgrade.

Yes, a good idea. Maybe it is not historical correct but for the non historical missions this will be a good solution.

In the Persia scenario there is an Aux Italian recon unit using the SkKfz 232 8 Rad. So maybe the designers were already thinking along those lines.

[monkspider]

I have been reading up a bit more on Italian vehicles and some units that I think would help the Italians immeasurably are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M15/42_tank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P40_tank

I think the biggest problem with the Italians is that they get no tanks after the M14/41.

[monkspider]

Oh, and one more thing that could persuade more people to use Italians out of awesomeness is to use their final medal as the Order of the Roman Eagle!

http://users.skynet.be/hendrik/eng/39italy.html

[Carius]

This is what the Italians need.

[Razz1]

I can not find the thread but my captured Matilda IIe still does not have a big picture even after Beta 3

[monkspider]

Actually I stand corrected, the P-40 is in the game and it is an impressive tank, unfortunately it only appears after the last battle on the Axis defeated branch starts (Tunisian Bridgehead). Hopefully it will be available for a longer time on the Axis victorious path.

[Scipioricardo]

A suggestion would be to keep some Italians as mandatory troops and decrease their upgrade costs to elite units. In this manner, you will still have the Italians fighting with the Germans in a nice balance. So far in the games I have tried, I have kept the Italians and used them as secondary support or as recon units to see what is down the road. If you make them elite, they have a better fighting chance of staying in the game.

[ThvN]

I'm always willing to sacrifice a bit of historical accuracy for a bit of fun, but I still like a reasonable part of my core to be Italian. But I feel some units need to much babysitting. It's fun to use the Italians as much as possible, it is a nice challenge. But I too feel the urge to kick out those M14/41 out of my core. Almost all Italian units seem to get more useless as the campaign progresses without much hope for improvement.

This whole thread is already filled with plenty suggestions about compensating the Italians with variations on the core mechanism. I like the freedom of choosing and playing according to your own style, so I would not like to see them forced upon the player. As auxiliaries they will just be used as fodder. One idea is perhaps the inclusion of Italian 'SE' units. They wouldn't have to be elite units with better stats, but they could be assigned in a similar way. This provides optional units outside the standard core slots, increasing the numerical strenght while making sure that the extra units are Italian. The extra units are now all German and quite good, biasing the core towards Germans even further.

This means that you will get Italians units 'forced' upon you, but you don't have to use them. If the player disbands them for prestige they will lose the extra unit slot. This will provide players with some motivation to keep them alive and upgrade them. Maybe this will keep more Italians part of the core for longer. Some extra units are always welcome, especially fighters or artillery.

As an example, the player could randomly be provided after a scenario with a free Italian bonus unit which does not need to be very good or special. These cheap units can be handed out by the Italian high command more frequently than you get German SE units now, and occasionally some 'normal' German SE to keep the variety.

That still leaves the problem that the Italian units themselves become increasingly outmatched and obsolete as the campaign progresses. I think Kerensky, early on, made a good point that if you can't make 'm as good as the Germans, make them more interesting. Basically, the options seem to be to create somewhat unique units, buff the existing ones or make them cheaper.

I think simply making them cheaper won't help. This method will almost require that the player gets extra core slots for Italian units, which will be very difficult to balance. And some posters already think that the Italians will only be used as cheap fodder at best.

The second option, buffing their stats, only lengthens their usefullness but won't adress the lack of upgrades and diversity. In my opinion some units already have slightly better stats than they deserve. The big problem is that there will always be a similar but better German unit to choose, and with limited core slots it's hard to ignore that. And the Italians still lack upgrades, but they will remain useful for longer. Still, the Italian equipment was often not as bad as it looked, just poorly used or in too small numbers to be effective.

Which brings me to the idea of adding Italian units that are still usefull or somewhat unique (an excellent example is the Sahariana). The Germans have got everything basically covered, so it will be hard to make some interesting units. That Autocannone da 90/53 on the truck pictured above by Carius is one of the few examples I can think of. Other than that, the Italians need some more upgrades and diversity. I've seen the requests for more infantry, esp. engineers, and '43 versions. HW infantry should be no problem, the Italians had 20mm anti-tank rifles, machineguns and mortars, so that won't be inaccurate or unbalancing.

I have spent the last few days brushing up my knowledge about Italian equipment, to see if I can come up with some ideas for easy fixes. Monkspider already posted the M15/42. It's basically an M14/41 with a different engine and a slightly better gun. I found a source conflicting with that Wikipedia article, production was started autumn 1942, first unit was apparently registered on November 21st. I also found the AB-43 prototype (AB-41 with 47mm gun) interesting. Reliable data is difficult to come by.

I don't know the best solution, and there will always be compromises. I will see if I can put some concrete ideas in a new post, with some info about the various units. I will post some of it later, to keep oversight and to give you time to finish your sleep which you'll undoubtely need after reading this.

[Chris10]

I'm always willing to sacrifice a bit of historical accuracy for a bit of fun, but I still like a reasonable part of my core to be Italian. But I feel some units need to much babysitting. It's fun to use the Italians as much as possible, it is a nice challenge. But I too feel the urge to kick out those M14/41 out of my core.

I have my italian M41 all high exp and overstrength 13-15 and they are highly usefull for flank and rear guarding ( as such they have been used back then) and they do not need babysitting at all when used properly...they are great to mob up remaining annoyances behing the main line and can stand their ground against most brit tanks (being attacked they inflict more damage as if they attack first) but when encountering Churchills just block their way and wait for tac air support

[ThvN]

I have my italian M41 all high exp and overstrength 13-15 and they are highly usefull for flank and rear guarding ( as such they have been used back then) and they do not need babysitting at all when used properly...they are great to mob up remaining annoyances behing the main line and can stand their ground against most brit tanks (being attacked they inflict more damage as if they attack first) but when encountering Churchills just block their way and wait for tac air support

Yes, you're right, they are not useless, but to camouflage my failings I just blame the equipment . But seriously, I too use them for mostly mop-up and guard duties, and having them overstrenght certainly helps. For some scenarios their speed is a bit low, it is as if I need to adjust my plans just to try and keep them relatively safe. But it takes very long before you can upgrade them. The P26/40 is OK, but when you can buy those you can also buy Tigers and Panthers. Maybe an M15/42 can make a little difference.

BTW, I think the hard attack value from the M14/41 is a bit low, although their armor might be heavier in the game than in real life . So right now I'm comparing 47mm and 50mm guns and comparing them to the HA values of different tanks. It's easy to change the values but very hard to come up with a good balance between realism, playability and fun.

I guess most people want the best equipment they can afford, and they will simply drive them to the nearest Krupp or Daimler-Benz dealer to trade them in for a shiny Panzer.