Panzer Corps East - The struggle for Russia "Grand Strategy"

[Chris10]

PANZERCORPS EAST REVEALING THE SECRET

Topic: Map of Europe, 18July2011
This would be great for a grand strategy game in Europe. Has any more work been done on it, such as placing cities? With the victory conditions in the editor, things like resource hexes could afford the owner prestige, key locations could be made part of the victory conditions etc etc. A very good start - thanks for your efforts.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT PANZERCORPS EAST IS GOING TO BE::::GRAND STRATEGY ON DIVISION/BRIGADE LEVEL AND YES THE WORK HAS ALMOST BEING DONE

MAP SPANNING FROM BERLIN TO IZHEVSK IN THE URAL AND FROM SOUTH FINLAND TO BAKU
MAPSIZE IS 232 HEIGHT TO 332 WIDTH
77024 HEXES OF REAL LIVING HISTORICAL TERRAIN
MAPBUILD IS FINAL ALREADY BUT STILL LAYING DETAIL:::MAP TOOK OVER 2 MONTHS TO BUILD UP HEX BY HEX
I THINK THIS COULD BE VERY WELL THE MOST ADVANCED; REALISTIC AND MOST DETAILED MAP EVER SHOWN FOR PANZERCORPS UNTIL NOW - BIG THANKS TO MASSIS WWII TILESET
22.06.1941-01.06.1945>EXACTLY 1440 DAYS
FEATURING:
- FAR OVER 1000 VILLAGES TOWNS AND CITYS WITH THEIR REAL NAMES.
- OVER 2300 DIFFERENT MAP STRINGS HAVE BEEN PLACED
- A REALISTIC ROAD AND RAIL NET VERY CLOSE TO THE HISTORICAL FACTS.
- REALISTIC TERRAIN ACCORDING TO REAL WORLD CONDITIONS BACK IN 1941 FEATURING SWAMPS, FORESTS, STEPPE ETC. WHERE THEY REALLY WERE
- ALL RIVER AND BIGGER LAKES FROM THE BERLIN TO THE URAL WITH THEIR REAL NAMES AND RIVER CURSES,
- FEATURING THE STALIN LINE OF FORTRESSES AND THE SALPA LINE IN FINLAND
- HISTORICAL PRODUCTION CENTERS OF EXTRAORDINAY IMPORTANCE JUST AS ALKETT BERLIN, HEINKEL ORANINEBURB, THE PLOESTI OIL REFINERYS, THE KHARKOV DIESEL FACTORY, THE MOSCOW DYNAMO FACTORY, THE STALINGRAD TRACTOR FACTORY AND MANY OTHERS
- A NEW MINIMAP AND A NEW STRATMAP DESIGN IN ORDER TO NOT LOOSE THE OVERALL VIEW

OBVIOULSY THE MAP IS FAR TO BIG TO BE POSTED AND IT WOULD TAKE ME HOURS AND HOURS TO MAKE ALL THE SCREENSHOTS AND MERGE THEM INTO ONE MAP SO IAM GOING TO POST THE FINAL MINIMAP WHICH ONLY SHOWS 2 TESTUNITS AND THE VICTORY HEXES (NEW MINIMAP SHOWS ONLY UNITS AND VICTORY HEXES IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO DETECT AT A GLANCE WHATS GOING ON AND WHERE FORCES ARE LOCATED)

MINIMAP BEFORE CLEANING THE INTERFACE SHOWING ALL CITYS,AIRFIELDS AND GOD KNOWS WHAT MORE


NEW STRATMAP DESIGN
I dunno but the counters somehow dont fit anymore. I would not dismiss somebody coming up with something more appropiate fitting with
my design and the overall game appearance


NOW I PROUDLY PRESENT THE
PANZERCORPS EAST MAIN MAP FINAL BUILD


NOW YOU MAY ASK IF IAM CRAZY:::HECK YEAH::MUST BE

[flakfernrohr]

I'M JUST KEEPING MY FINGERS CROSSED THE AI WILL HANDLE THIS MOD. IF IT DOES, IT WILL BE SOMETHING I WILL ENJOY VERY VERY MUCH, ESPECIALLY WITH MY ADDITIONAL MAPS I MADE FOR THE EAST.

[El_Condoro]

SO WHAT'S WITH POSTING IN CAPITAL LETTERS!

My main concern with big maps like this is whether - when all the hundreds (thousands?) of units are added - whether the engine can handle it or whether turns will take 10 minutes or more for the AI to play (if they don't crash). I'm sure you'll keep us posted as the development proceeds. My other concern - and it's a personal preference - is the amount of scrolling that will be necessary to play a turn. Anyway, that's just me.

[Chris10]

SO WHAT'S WITH POSTING IN CAPITAL LETTERS!

visibility

My main concern with big maps like this is whether - when all the hundreds (thousands?) of units are added - whether the engine can handle it or whether turns will take 10 minutes or more for the AI to play (if they don't crash).

hundreds not thousands...the max projected unit amount for axis will be around 200-350 and soviet starting units slighly more (lot more tanks,artillery,planes,less inf),final numbers determined by a mathematical comparison model...and while getting some reinforcements during game the player will loose a bunch too so this will get less cause the Wehrmacht never again reached the initial strength... this is an attrition war as it has been,the player can not buy units until he reaches a critical minimum there is an attached catch 88 for the axis..if pushing to quick and to far, to many units will get destroyed cause of being surrounded or erratic decisions resulting in the army getting depleted...by going to slow the soviets will have more and more tanks,planes,divisions,everything.... making it next to impossible to advance and/or hold key locations...at least thats the concept

or whether turns will take 10 minutes or more for the AI to play

Its Grand Strategy so Iam not really concerned about that...this is not meant to be played as a pasttime in the morning break but as a grand strategy game lasting maybe dozens of hours a game (like Hearts Of Iron II,Victoria II or War in the East or the huge real world hex wargames)...of course one can switch off "Follow AI movement" but I think it takes part of the fun away...Civilization II AI turns on huge maps in the late game took up to 10 minutes and there were millions of addicts anyway,so my question is...and what ?

AI to play (if they don't crash)

Dont even mention that ...Iam concerned too but there is no other way to find out than to finish the beast and try it out....technically I dont see why it should crash if not for stack data overflow freeze (1GB RAM usage) cause if the AI is set to go to next VH from where a unit is located it should work just fine as long as there is no max distance to VH set. I even placed some of the VH in order to set a path to follow while reducng them to the lowest possible number

My other concern - and it's a personal preference - is the amount of scrolling that will be necessary to play a turn.

On the second level its not that much since level 2 displays close to 20x20 tiles

I'M JUST KEEPING MY FINGERS CROSSED THE AI WILL HANDLE THIS MOD.

so do I ....as long as the AI can play out the turns and attack/defend the VH hexes it will do just fine...I make sure the rest

[flakfernrohr]

SO WHAT'S WITH POSTING IN CAPITAL LETTERS!

visibility

I'M JUST KEEPING MY FINGERS CROSSED THE AI WILL HANDLE THIS MOD.

so do I ....as long as the AI can play out the turns and attack/defend the VH hexes it will do just fine...I make sure the rest

Chris, I am speaking with some past experience in making large maps with many units. Balck tried it and made it work, but the turns took about five minutes. I made four HUGE maps of Southern and Eastern Russia and began making a campaign in each. My hexes are 5-7KM in scale, the maps were 600 km or so by 600 km or smaller usually. I found that trying to "play" a game on that scale is difficult for me at times because of trying to keep my fingers on everything that happens in a move and especially ones that I cannot see. So I cut my 4 maps into 22 different large (by PzC standards) but smaller scenario maps and they all flow together and overlap. They follow the campaign, time line and all are chronological. The map territory that I have just played on in the previous campaign or scenario is left behind and I wind up in new territory, new scenario/campaign that is easier to keep my eyes on for the units and actions. Each large map was divided into from three to six or seven scenarios that are a campaign as part of a bigger campaign encompassing all of them. Here is a link to the thread on the forum I got some good advice.

viewtopic.php?f=147&t=28937

When you start to move and play with 50 or more units and see what is happening to them each turn, it gets complicated and sometimes very difficult. The largest I know of that has been made and works properly is the Market Garden Campaign in this topic

viewtopic.php?t=30301

Erik is a very intelligent PzC game modder and he crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's. But it's a big mod, historically accurate.

So what I am saying is IF you find you must cut your large map (maps) down, do not let it discourage you. You have the grand map (maps) made and they will all flow together and in the BIG picture you will still have your Grand Campaign intact.

[Chris10]

Thnx a bunch Flak, I really appreciate some input...only 5 minutes a turn would be awesome btw
now that really got me motivated
I already thought about a plan B dividing the map into 4 or 6 but really would prefer not to

I really would like to bring the Grand Strategy feeling to PzC..bringing in new divisions from the Reich to the front, strategic considerations and redeployment,mandatory railtransport (due to distances) to reinforce front zones under threat of collapse will bring the tension and fun a "scenario" never can deliver cause here you can face loosing the campaign after having spent hours and hours..thats real emotion and stress...good recipe for a satisfying game experience...
needless to say movement will be amended to the big map and real vehicle,plane ranges so this plays a bit different than just a big map with vanilla movement,as well combat will be different with bigger unit movement

I found that trying to "play" a game on that scale is difficult for me at times because of trying to keep my fingers on everything that happens in a move and especially ones that I cannot see.

I know what you mean therefore I redefined the minimap and the stratmap to show only units and victory hexes..the rest is down to each player..its part of the fun and GaryGrigsbys War in the East has the same problem, so does Hearts of Iron II and other Grand Strategy Games..heck in Hearts Of Iron II I even took control of Italy and Japan whne playing Axis..now that was really hard due to different timezones ..games took forever but were huge fun

[Radoye]

Another issue with big maps covering huge areas is weather.

It never rains in entire Europe at the same time. When northern Russia is frozen the weather at the Black Sea coast could still be pretty mild. When snow thaws in Russia all roads disappear in mud but in Central Europe the travel goes on without any problem.

[Chris10]

Another issue with big maps covering huge areas is weather.
It never rains in entire Europe at the same time. When northern Russia is frozen the weather at the Black Sea coast could still be pretty mild. When snow thaws in Russia all roads disappear in mud but in Central Europe the travel goes on without any problem.

This may a moot point right now cause its pretty obvious there are some engine limitations which can not be tricked away at the moment,maybe later but certainly nothing gamebreaking...anyway I have the complete weather records for 1941-1945 so again this will be implemented with a statistical compromise based on mathermatical comparison and average values in order to maintain some consistency...
The good thing is that the Winters 1941,1942,1943,1944,1945 were among the strongest/longest/coldest in the entire century so it was not only in Russia but in entire Europe. There is quite a number of meteorologists who advocate the theory that human acitivity (great scale war) with all its accelerated pollution (industrial production),destruction,smoke,fire,stirred up dust and so on were the main cause for the extreme weather conditions in the war years from 1941 onwards. A similar phenomenon had been observed during WWI.

However I would love to be able to tie weather conditions to action zones in order to generate different weather on the map and requested this to be implemented cause codewise its no big deal anyway...what would not work anymore then is the weather display in the UI as its supposed to show the entire weather but this could be tied to "hoover over hex" and the minimap could show darker groundtiles for rain/clouds and brighter for snow

[Radoye]

However I would love to be able to tie weather conditions to action zones in order to generate different weather on the map and requested this to be implemented cause codewise its no big deal anyway...what would not work anymore then is the weather display in the UI as its supposed to show the entire weather but this could be tied to "hoover over hex" and the minimap could show darker groundtiles for rain/clouds and brighter for snow

That my good Sir sounds like an excellent idea!

[Chris10]

When you start to move and play with 50 or more units and see what is happening to them each turn, it gets complicated and sometimes very difficult.

This is part of the game Dwight...oversights,forbearingness,negligence....they all form part of a grand startegy game and are commonly know as the big mistakes in the war ...for example "somebody" overlooked the fact that by seperating Army Group South into Army Group A and B each of these formations would be to weak to uphold a big counteroffensive as their flanks were exposed and as well "somebody" carelessly jeopardized the entire Army Group A in the Caucasus after the 6th Army got trapped in Stalingrad and only vonMannsteins refusal, as new Supreme Commander of Army Group Don, to obey Hitlers orders assured that Army Group A could escape the Caucasus...so why you should be in a better position then those who committed the big errors in the first place ? ...In my opinion a perfect game without errors,oversights etc is not worth to be played as the winner is already known and its only the human erros who make the Grand Strategy Games interesting...

btw 1 turn on the big real world hex boardgames can take hours and hours of consideration and planning and a turn in Gary Grigsbys War in the East easily takes up to one hour ...Its Grand Strategy...but as well it brings the feeling of epic decisiveness instead of sometimes meaningless generic scenarios in a campaign tree...the word front will get a new dimension and there is meaning in taking certain objectives cause the player will need the prestige dearly hence there are a mandatory strategic considerations maybe clashing with the available forces or prestige to reinforce and so on and so on...ahhhh...I get carried away....

[flakfernrohr]

When you start to move and play with 50 or more units and see what is happening to them each turn, it gets complicated and sometimes very difficult.

with the available forces or prestige to reinforce and so on and so on...ahhhh...I get carried away....

And I know that feeling too.........almost adrenalin taking over and the mind in another place rather than in front of your computer.

[deducter]

This is certainly an impressive and ambitious experiment, and kudos to chris10 for making such a scenario.

I have to agree with El_Condoro and flakfernrohr that I have some concerns about the AI being able to handle such a map. I have a very strong suspicion that it won't be able to do what you want without you inputting hundreds or even thousands of triggers. I have played PzC so much that I have a good sense of how the AI behaves, and it might be possible to tweak it so that it fights fairly well in a localized manner (see maps like Stalingrad/Prohkorovka). But if you expect the AI to be able to launch Uranus or Bagration-type operations, I think you will be disappointed.

Without splitting your map up into several smaller "theaters," I think playtesting will be very difficult. This is especially true for the years after 1941. One problem with many grand strategy games like HoI II is that the game is already decided after Barbarossa. By then, it'll usually be obvious if the player will be able to advance to the Urals, or if the player has already lost so many units that they'd lose. In any event, I do hope you have good luck balancing the map appropriately.

[flakfernrohr]

Of course the beauty of it when all complete is that it is done once and for all. And it can be made to work one way or the other if it does not work as expected. I am very happy for the project being undertaken and to be completed since 80% of my interest in playing is in the Eastern Theatre and Russia, the hinterlands and Siberia.

What we really need now is the tiles that Massi had expressed a desire to make and for which I provided considerable reference material to him, to be made by him or someone with equal talent. They were to be tiles of Russian, Ukrainian and Eastern Europe villages, cities, bridges, architecture, factories, etc. and also a number of "bombed out" towns and sections of cities for ruins. Massi fell out along the way and got busy doing something else to my huge sorrow (but understanding). Life interferes and priorities change, I fully understand, but I am patiently waiting for this type of modder to appear sooner or later and give us these kinds of tiles. We will get a few from DMP, but not the variety nor number as we would otherwise have gotten.

[Chris10]

This is certainly an impressive and ambitious experiment, and kudos to chris10 for making such a scenario.

I have to agree with El_Condoro and flakfernrohr that I have some concerns about the AI being able to handle such a map. I have a very strong suspicion that it won't be able to do what you want without you inputting hundreds or even thousands of triggers. I have played PzC so much that I have a good sense of how the AI behaves, and it might be possible to tweak it so that it fights fairly well in a localized manner (see maps like Stalingrad/Prohkorovka). But if you expect the AI to be able to launch Uranus or Bagration-type operations, I think you will be disappointed.

Without splitting your map up into several smaller "theaters," I think playtesting will be very difficult. This is especially true for the years after 1941. One problem with many grand strategy games like HoI II is that the game is already decided after Barbarossa. By then, it'll usually be obvious if the player will be able to advance to the Urals, or if the player has already lost so many units that they'd lose. In any event, I do hope you have good luck balancing the map appropriately.

Very kind, llets see what will happen....I have no problem at all with doin thousands of triggers.In another big poject I have written over 20.000 additional scriptlines for a RomeTotalWar Total Conversion mod to make it work the way I want and now its considered as one of the very very few real challenging RTW games ever while playing as the Romans. Guaranteed no steamrolling without massive cheating and lots of people got them their butts handed and lost their campaign (not very usual for RTW anyway ) and they loved it....
During developement some said it wasnt really feasible what I was attemting cause of RTW engine limitations but, well...there it goes ...and I havent done any balance playtest at all as things were mathematically calculated with different comparison methods.I only tested the functionality of the script and the coding in an AI campaign and released it...it worked...maybe I have luck one more time
RTW is still a great game and lots of fun with the right mod... I may recommend it to you: Of course you need RTW ...
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Of course the beauty of it when all complete is that it is done once and for all. And it can be made to work one way or the other if it does not work as expected. I am very happy for the project being undertaken and to be completed since 80% of my interest in playing is in the Eastern Theatre and Russia

This +1

We will get a few from DMP, but not the variety nor number as we would otherwise have gotten.

The point with DMP stuff is that its an entirely different style which doesnt fit with vanilla style at all...so a map has to be done in DMP style or vanilla style as mixing the tiles with vanilla may look like utter crap

[Chris10]

PANZERCORPS EAST PROUDLY PRESENTS

THE STRATMAP
I just have taken this screen of the stratmap and its the very first time I see it myself cause it wasnt working properly until now.
Maybe Iam biased but I think the map looks utterly beautiful....
For info I operate a low end system: Win7 32bit, I5 QuadCore, 4GB RAM, 512MB GT340 DDR5 RAM, 26' Monitor
The bigger your Monitor the better it will look obviously.


Due to the enormous size I had to rework the counters to show only unit affinity..after all its a real Strategic map now and contrary to the Panzercoprs tactical level this Map now serves as a real Strategic Overview regarding the overall situation rather then showing specific unitclasses..and with hundreds of units on the map it wouldnt work anyway and would cause huge confusion

Ground Units

Toggle Air Units

[airbornemongo101]

Looking awesome chris.

Can't wait to play this.

[Chris10]

Looking awesome chris.
Can't wait to play this.

thnx..very kind..still a while though

Still working on the map overlays, its really hardcore on a map as big as this...
well..while still in progress Iam going to post some Map Images in the meantime...
I really like the ingame impression of the smaller villages...it looks a lot more alive and less generic...
as well I made a new Asset based on Massis legacy to fill the gap between Massis Big Village and his Small Village (with Church)
NEW VILLAGE OVERLAY


KHARKOV AND SURROUNDINGS

[Schweinewitz]

Stumbled over this accidentally. All I can say is: WTF?

I was always sceptic regarding Panzer Corps, but now it seems I have to buy this game just because of this awesome looking mod. Playing grand strategy on a divisional level is an old dream of mine ...

Really great map, must have been a hell lot of work!

[Chris10]

Stumbled over this accidentally. All I can say is: WTF?
I was always sceptic regarding Panzer Corps, but now it seems I have to buy this game just because of this awesome looking mod. Playing grand strategy on a divisional level is an old dream of mine ...

thnx..very kind..its always nice to realize that there are others who feel the same way...
and wow...in that case I may ask Slitherine for a sales share or ask them for dev support...LOL ...ahh..nvmd..kidding

Really great map, must have been a hell lot of work!

Thank you...I did/do my very best and yeah..the map was actually multiple hells but Iam nearly over it, there is just a few hours left to finish the last bits of finetuning ...to be honest I am not sure I would do it again in similar size without getting paid for it, its just an insame amount of work but once I realized how long it would really take I was almost half thru so I decided to finish it instead of loosing all the time I already spent

[soldier]

This mod looks very promising and appears quite similar to an old "operation barbarossa" mod for civ3 that i used to play'. The strategic map looks excellent. Best of luck with the project