El_Condoro wrote:It is a complex problem. We dealt with a similar issue with recons in PG2 where they would constantly be used to drain artillery before an assault - usually a tank overrun. The approach (not quite a 'solution') we took was the make the recons very expensive (so the player is encouraged to look after them) with a high GD (to make them harder to kill) and a low ammo maximum (so that, if attacked, they would still be vulnerable after the first attack). That was PG2 - PzC is a different beast.
The real solution would be, if the recon cars could somehow "evade" the attack, that is the random result of at least 50% of the combat situations, when the recon unit is attacked, would end up in... no result - that is no loses on either side. Or alternatively the recon cars could withdraw when attacked. In Strategic Command "The Great War", the submarines can evade the attack and that depends on their experience and technological advancement. I don't think that this mechanics is very advanced from the technical point of view, but it's probably one of those things that would need to be introduced by the developers and goes beyond the modding.
This has been discussed in another thread. The idea of submarine-like abilities for recons sounds good until you realise the AI will have recons with the same abilities! It also compounds the problem deducter brought up - imagine an AI BA-64 parked in a choke point on the map with one approach hex and because it 'evades' attack after attack it holds your whole column of King Tigers up for 3 or 4 turns! I have put sea mines in the submarine class in my Maelstrom mod and it works well in that context - but it can still take 2 or 3 turns to take them out with minesweepers. Imagine the frustration if the AI had recons that did the same thing.
El_Condoro wrote: imagine an AI BA-64 parked in a choke point on the map with one approach hex and because it 'evades' attack after attack it holds your whole column of King Tigers up for 3 or 4 turns!
To be honest, I'd be quite happy if the AI recon could perform such a feat If the recon cars could potentially evade the attack ( more less of 50% probability depending on the unit experience ), then it would require the player to use some more intelligent tactics, than just crushing everyting of his path with the strongest tank units. The probability that the attack against the recon can fail, could reqire some more advanced tactics - for example fending off the enemy recon with weaker units or even with his own recon. The WWII motorised recon units, were direct descendants of the cavlry and every major early WWI or XIX century battle, was preceded by the cavalry skirmishes. On the tactical level, the same was true during the WWII with this difference, that the cavalry was replaced by the motorized recon units. Also it was not uncommon, that the recon units were used to cover some thinly defended area, because they could slow down the enemy advance and then successfully disengage in face of the superior enemy force.
At the end, the role of the recon units on the battlefield was nearly as important as the one of tanks ( there were examples of the WWII battles conducted without the tank support, but I cannot think of any successfull offensive without the support of the recon units ). Due to that, I'd have no problem if the recon units were given some additional abilities in exchange of their cost increase.
Imagine that the cost of a recon car is 450-500 and it can potentially evade an attack ( if the attack is successfull then this expensive piece of equipment takes high casualties as it is now ). It would mean from one hand that the recon may spoil an attack of some heavy tank but from another, that if you leave your recon too exposed then it may suffer some expensive loses in terms of the prestige. Due to that, the "tactics" of smashing the recon with your heavy tanks wouldn't be viable anymore. From the other hand, because the cost of the recon would equal more less the one of a medium tank, the players would need to be very carefull and placing the recons to guard the various "choking points", would be too risky and potentially too costly.
Unfortunately, it's not possible to test your idea with the current equipment; you either have a recon with evasion but no phased movement (submarine class), or with phased movement and no evasion (recon class). If a submarine trait was added, it could be tested but from what I know of killing submarines and sea mines I anticipate it would be too much of an advantage, even as a high-cost unit. I like the idea of evasion ability being tied to experience, too - that should be the case with submarines of all persuasions, too.
El_Condoro wrote:
This has been discussed in another thread. The idea of submarine-like abilities for recons sounds good until you realise the AI will have recons with the same abilities! It also compounds the problem deducter brought up - imagine an AI BA-64 parked in a choke point on the map with one approach hex and because it 'evades' attack after attack it holds your whole column of King Tigers up for 3 or 4 turns! I have put sea mines in the submarine class in my Maelstrom mod and it works well in that context - but it can still take 2 or 3 turns to take them out with minesweepers. Imagine the frustration if the AI had recons that did the same thing.
I dont see a big problem here...its a question of gamerules
a 50-50 chance of "evade" for recons tied to the "retreat" action will avoid that paths be blocked or that the AI will block the player...anyway I dont know why people always reasoning with exploits..if people wanna cheat they do anyway
Recon Rules executed as follows:
Attack = 50-50 evade > retreat (holds true for every following attack)
If retreat not possible to adjacent free hex just evade first attack
If retreat not possible on 2nd attack retreat to any free hex within 4 hex radius (escape)
if no free hex available within 4 hexes on 2nd attack > surrender
additional mechanics: Recons attacking Recons disable "evade"
Tac Bombers attacking Recons lower "evade" to 25% chance (this makes especially sense)
Ah but retreat is not what the submarine class does - they dive. If an attack forced a retreat that might be a good option for ground attacks against recons, though. I assume the mechanic might be akin to a full suppression of the recon, including its surrender if surrounded.
chris10 wrote:
I dont see a big problem here...its a question of gamerules
a 50-50 chance of "evade" for recons tied to the "retreat" action will avoid that paths be blocked or that the AI will block the player...anyway I dont know why people always reasoning with exploits..if people wanna cheat they do anyway
Recon Rules executed as follows:
Attack = 50-50 evade > retreat (holds true for every following attack)
If retreat not possible to adjacent free hex just evade first attack
If retreat not possible on 2nd attack retreat to any free hex within 4 hex radius (escape)
if no free hex available within 4 hexes on 2nd attack > surrender
additional mechanics: Recons attacking Recons disable "evade"
Tac Bombers attacking Recons lower "evade" to 25% chance (this makes especially sense)
problem solved
That's what the submarines in Strategic Command do - when they manage to evade the attack, they jump to a random hex within the 4 hexes radius. It would be great if the recon cars could do something simmilar but that would require a new mechanics in place, wouldn't it?
ivanov wrote:
That's what the submarines in Strategic Command do - when they manage to evade the attack, they jump to a random hex within the 4 hexes radius
I honestly didnt knew that I just thought it was the right radius.
ivanov wrote:
It would be great if the recon cars could do something simmilar but that would require a new mechanics in place, wouldn't it?
the implementation would require adding a few new strings and variables to the exe
I think given the current limitations of the system, there's no way to design a perfect recon system, but I do think it can be improved. It may end up being that I have to pick the "lesser of evils."
I will not give an evasion to recon units. The reason is simple: too much luck involved. There's luck in this game of course, but a 50/50 chance of completely negating an attack is HUGE. You basically flip a coin, a la Two Face, to decide whether your unit lives or dies. That's not strategy.
That said, here are some of my ideas.
1. Change recon units to SOFT.
Pros: Much more survivable against medium/heavy tanks
Cons: Infantry perform better, artillery perform better, AT guns perform poorly, SPAT guns perform poorly
2. Up GD of recon units
Pros: more survivability
Cons: potentially too tough, turns from cannon fodder into the Churchill Mk. VII (seen only in MP, has SA = HA = 8, GD = 26).
3. Up Recon base strength from 10 to 15, lower ROF from 10 to 7. In other words, the recon unit gains more "HP,"
Pros: more hitpoints are good
Cons: 5 hit points is a LOT if fighting units like infantry or even the T-34/43, but won't solve the issue of a T-34/85 wiping out 10 out of 15 strength points.
4. Up the movement of Recon units
Pros: more movement means you can dash forward and dash backwacks
Cons: too much tactical opportunity for an advanced player like myself, plus once you see those opportunities, you can't "unsee" them
5. The current system, where recon has SPOTTING = 4 and is relatively cheap
Pros: Recon is good at its role: reconnaissance
Cons: Recon dies horribly against any decent tank (is this really even a con?)
I honestly think the current system might be the lesser of the evils. Recon has SPOTTING = 4, so they are very good at actually doing reconnaissance. Most of them have low ammo so they are not meant to engage in prolonged combat. They are relatively cheap. If you choose to dash ahead with them, you are making a gamble, which is fine.
Remember no unit can be too good in my mod. I don't strive for 100% historical accuracy, I put game balance forward.
deducter wrote:
I will not give an evasion to recon units.
ehm...Iam not aware of the fact that this could de done anyway or Am I wrong maybe ?
I could use this for my mod as maps are wide and big and it would be totally unlikely that a recon would block a path...
deducter wrote:
I will not give an evasion to recon units.
ehm...Iam not aware of the fact that this could de done anyway or Am I wrong maybe ?
I could use this for my mod as maps are wide and big and it would be totally unlikely that a recon would block a path...
Hmm, it seems like you can't have a "recon" unit just like El Condoro. You could still have a high move, high spotting "submarine" class unit that functions like a recon unit. It wouldn't have phased movement, but its evasion helps save it if it moves ahead of your main army.
Even if there were a "submarine" trait I wouldn't add it. The reason is that the outcome based on luck is too random: either huge damage, or 0 damage. Currently there is plenty of luck, and yes, on rare occasion a 3-3 result might actually turn out to 6-1, but that is uncommon, only maybe 5-10% chance.
deducter wrote:3. Up Recon base strength from 10 to 15, lower ROF from 10 to 7. In other words, the recon unit gains more "HP,"
Pros: more hitpoints are good
Cons: 5 hit points is a LOT if fighting units like infantry or even the T-34/43, but won't solve the issue of a T-34/85 wiping out 10 out of 15 strength points.
4. Up the movement of Recon units
Pros: more movement means you can dash forward and dash backwacks
Cons: too much tactical opportunity for an advanced player like myself, plus once you see those opportunities, you can't "unsee" them
3. Of course, on Manstein, they have would have 20 strength!
4. Perhaps to offset the advantage a bit, set all recons to movement type 2 (wheeled), rather than 7 (all terrain). This would mean they can rip down roads but struggle more over rougher terrain. The main recons used by players (in my experience) are the all terrain type, although there are many wheeled ones in the list.
The idea of having recon units be ranged is an interesting one. Say I up the move to 12, meaning 6 on clear/country terrain. That means recon units are super effective where they are roads: they can dash in and out. Of course in Russia, roads are a rarity, although every mission has some roads.
I could have some recon units be 12 move wheeled, some be 8 move all-terrain...
I'm personally leaning towards either changing recon to soft, or leaving the way it is now. My question is, which is the lesser of evils? Having recon be more vulnerable to infantry, or having recon be more vulnerable to tanks? I think the former is more problematic.
There is always the option of making recon units soft and giving them around 10-12 GD. In that case, the prices will have to be raised very significantly. The good thing about the prestige system is that it doesn't necessarily have to be tied to production numbers or cost. I'd imagine that recon is more prestigious not because of the cost of the little armored-car, but because of the crew. Just like the Fallschirmajger 43 cost an insane amount because the they were elite, well-trained, rare.
I'd go for the lesser evil option number two - recons are turned into soft tatgets, with higher GD values and they are significantly more expensive. It just hurts me to see them being ripped appart so easily by the tanks
The recon discussion has been very good, I have a good idea of what I want to do now.
I plan on having combat recon vs dedicated recon units.
1. Combat recon would be like the Panzer II Luchs or the T-60/T-70 tanks of the Soviets. My plan is to let them have 3 spotting and let them retain their hard target status. They will have superior ammo and be better able to fight. These units are still not meant for the frontlines, but to rather pick off weakened units or take advantage of some tactical opportunity with their phased movement.
2. Dedicated recon units will have 4 spotting and be soft targets. They are designed to be more survivable against attacks, hence they will have a higher GD. They will have poor ammo/attack so they can't really do much fighting.
I was thinking of adding families to certain German recon units, for instance, the sdkfz 222 and the sdkfz 231 could share a family. The former will be a combat recon unit and the latter a dedicated recon unit. They can be interchanged in between missions for free, because I plan on having them be the same price. Is all of this too unrealistic and/or complicated? Will combat recon units be useless due to their vulnerability, so perhaps they too should be soft targets?
No matter what changes I make though, you will always be taking a risk if you send your recon unit ahead of your army. It may be somewhat more survivable, but don't be surprised if 3 T-34s gang up on one and kill it.
Very good idea! Cant wait to see it implemented. What would be the cost of the combat and dedicated recon units? I personally would probably go for the dedicated units but the choice is not so obvious and that's the whole point
Are you planing to work on the unit rebalancing for the upcoming Afrika Korps? I have to say that the DLC's played with your e-file are the the most enjoyable of all the campaigns ( official and unofficial ones ).
If the recon cars could potentially evade the attack ( more less of 50% probability depending on the unit experience ), then it would require the player to use some more intelligent tactics, than just crushing everyting of his path with the strongest tank units. The probability that the attack against the recon can fail, could reqire some more advanced tactics - for example fending off the enemy recon with weaker units or even with his own recon. The WWII motorised recon units, were direct descendants of the cavlry and every major early WWI or XIX century battle, was preceded by the cavalry skirmishes. On the tactical level, the same was true during the WWII with this difference, that the cavalry was replaced by the motorized recon units. Also it was not uncommon, that the recon units were used to cover some thinly defended area, because they could slow down the enemy advance and then successfully disengage in face of the superior enemy force.
I just thought it was the right radius.
