Field of Glory Tabletop Rankings Live!

[nikgaukroger]

You mean as well as the FoG PC game that they have just released with lot's of trumpeting sounds and so on?

Yes. My understanding, and I haven't played it personally, is that the recent PC game is similar but isn't a complete rendering of the rules. So my question is simply - will a full version ever be made?

No.

[hammy]

If you want to play miniatures style FoG online then you might be able to get somewhere with Cyberboard or Vassal. I think there were people who made DBM modules for both programs.

It would take a while to play a full game though. My understanding is that a lot of the 'changes' in the computer game were done to make it more playable as a computer game.

[Ghaznavid]

I've added an table showing the relative "army decisiveness" right above the bar-graph on the army-details pages.

May I suggest that this would be better expressed as a % of the total games included for that army.

Not sure if this idea got lost in the depth of the thread.

No I took notice and it made it on my To-Do list, but not to the top of it, couple of other things need to be taken care off 1st (like preparing a session for my D&D group, Sat. draws close alarmingly fast).

[azrael86]

If you want to play miniatures style FoG online then you might be able to get somewhere with Cyberboard or Vassal. I think there were people who made DBM modules for both programs.

It would take a while to play a full game though. My understanding is that a lot of the 'changes' in the computer game were done to make it more playable as a computer game.

I don't particularly want to, I was merely observing that if the game was online, then a real world championship could be run on a regular basis without clocking up air miles. As it seems that an opportunity has been missed then we will continue in the current 'continental' system.

[hammy]

I don't particularly want to, I was merely observing that if the game was online, then a real world championship could be run on a regular basis without clocking up air miles. As it seems that an opportunity has been missed then we will continue in the current 'continental' system.

As someone who has racked up a LOT of air miles to play wargames in other countries I have to say I would prefer that there was not an online way to do it. I like the excuse to travel and have visited a lot of places I would not otherwise have done because of wargaming.

Playing any game on the computer even against another human is just too impersonal for me. I spend more than enough time in front of my PC anyway.

[azrael86]

As someone who has racked up a LOT of air miles to play wargames in other countries I have to say I would prefer that there was not an online way to do it. I like the excuse to travel and have visited a lot of places I would not otherwise have done because of wargaming.

Playing any game on the computer even against another human is just too impersonal for me. I spend more than enough time in front of my PC anyway.

Of course computer games are not ideal, but I suspect that your view might have been different if you were based in say, New Zealand or Kazhakstan? Imagine you had to take 3-4 days off work to attend a comp, with only 1/2 day in that for sightseeing, at a cost of say £800 for flights alone - leaving aside the visa? Of course for many it isn't the time or the cost per se but the family issues that will impact.

Obviously it is great to have comps in places like Athens, Helsinki, etc. All I am suggesting is that the odd far flung gamer in Canada, Nz or even Manchester (:-)) would benefit from having the real game on line, rather than some doppelganger. However it seems that Slitherine (in Microsoft mode) have decided it shall not be....

Everyone spends too much time on something indefensible. If not the PC it would be watching TV, drinking or painting LH...

[fgilson]

In the business...of computer games...we find that online versions do NOT cannibalize the physical games they 'copy', but rather enhance them...so that more people have an interest in playing in person, physically, as a result of more regular contact with the game in question and a wider player base.

That said, competition should be a bit different...there need to be physical competition events that are not duplicated online...and online competition events that are not duplicated physically...

With work and family obligations...it is very hard to get as much face-to-face gaming in as we'd all like. A lot of the market research I've worked with has the acquisition customer (young gamer) more and more on PCs and handhelds and less and less in game stores. Good strategy games need faithful online 'copies'.

[nikgaukroger]

Obviously it is great to have comps in places like Athens, Helsinki, etc. All I am suggesting is that the odd far flung gamer in Canada, Nz or even Manchester (:-)) would benefit from having the real game on line, rather than some doppelganger. However it seems that Slitherine (in Microsoft mode) have decided it shall not be....

One of the reasons I understand that a full tabletop equivalent of FoG isn't going to happen is that to actually properly reproduce what you can do on the table is very very complicated indeed, if it is actually possible, and that the time and effort involved (which, of course, equals cost) compared to the sales potential makes the whole idea laughable commercially.

of course if somebody wanted to sing a huge amount of dosh into making it happen, and be prepared to write it off as lost, them I'm sure Slitherine would listed to a proposal.

[IainMcNeil]

The tabletop game would never convert to a good computer game. If you tried to make it an exact copy it would be totally unplayable. Things you do naturaly with you hands becomes almost impossible with a mouse. The subtle nuances of the rules would be amost impossible to rationalise to a logic the PC can understand - if you ever have a situation where you're not sure what to do and an umpire has to rule the outcome or you have to agree something with your opponent, that equals a crash on a PC game. The phases would make multiplayer totally unworkable and take weeks to complete a single game. Creating an AI that could play even a basic game would be almost impossible due to the complexity of the game. Even if it was something that people would play, the cost of making such a game would be prohibitive, so this is just never going to happen as the sales would be practically 0. If anyone would like to fund and manage the development of such a project they are welcome to try

The PC game takes the core of the tabletop game and adapts to the PC. Currently it misses some of the command and control features but we're looking for ways to integrate those. Combat & cohesion is exactly as on the tabletop. There are some parts of the flavour of the tabletop still to go in but each patch adds more scenarios and more features. It also adds in a lot the tabletop can't do and the multiplayer system online is revolutionary. There will be tournaments which can cope with unlimited entries from around the world so everyone can join in and this will be great to see. We still have some technical issues to resolve for tournaments but when it's done I think there will be no wargame equal to it. It's already winning awards and it has only just released!

Not everyone wants to play the PC game and that's fine - do whatever suits you best. As long as you're happy and wargaming!

[hammy]

Of course computer games are not ideal, but I suspect that your view might have been different if you were based in say, New Zealand or Kazhakstan? Imagine you had to take 3-4 days off work to attend a comp, with only 1/2 day in that for sightseeing, at a cost of say £800 for flights alone - leaving aside the visa? Of course for many it isn't the time or the cost per se but the family issues that will impact.

Obviously it is great to have comps in places like Athens, Helsinki, etc. All I am suggesting is that the odd far flung gamer in Canada, Nz or even Manchester (:-)) would benefit from having the real game on line, rather than some doppelganger. However it seems that Slitherine (in Microsoft mode) have decided it shall not be....

As Nik pointed out producing a computer version of the tabletop game is a very difficult task. Playing the tabletop version against another human using Cyberboard or Vassal is however possible as the Humans can far more easily cope with the complexities and allow for the limitations of the computer model.

I am fortunate (or was fortunate) in that for a number of years I was in very well payed employment and not having kids I could justify my various inter continental trips. I have yet to play wargames in New Zealand but intend rectifying that next year. I have played in four continents which is not a bad effort IMO.

[dave_r]

Four? Have you wargamed in South America or Asia?

I can remember you going to Africa, North America and Europe (the last one every Monday...)

Whereabouts in Asia or South America have you gone?

[philqw78]

Four? Have you wargamed in South America or Asia?

I can remember you going to Africa, North America and Europe (the last one every Monday...)

Whereabouts in Asia or South America have you gone?

Australia doesn't count because it is made up. Small bears that live in trees, Kangaroos (WTF). Its a lie to placate the remaining relatives of all those bread thieves that were executed, sorry, shipped off to a better life in the colonies. Occassionally some names are made up, like Kylie, and somebody is taught to speak funny. They are then put on telly and pretend to be "Australian". New Zealand may exist, but I'm not sure. I think they just use Fijians/Pacific islanders for the rugby, so there's not much proof there.

[nikgaukroger]

Well he does play in Britain and, as we know, that isn't part of Europe so thats another one

[azrael86]

Lots of interesting responses, which is good. Sadly I suspect that for many FoG PC is going to end up rather 'film of the book' whether that is the railway children or the fellowship of the ring remains to be seen..

My original point was that you might be able to resolve the ELO imbalance created by having various groups playing independently, whereby Players A, B and C are actually identical in ability, but because they play in different groups they end up with hugely divergent rankings (or the situation where multiple players with the same rating aren't axctually equal, for the same reason). So the cyberboard idea might work. It wasn't suggesting you have an AI, more the facility to play online.

As for

"The subtle nuances of the rules would be amost impossible to rationalise to a logic the PC can understand - if you ever have a situation where you're not sure what to do and an umpire has to rule the outcome or you have to agree something with your opponent, that equals a crash on a PC game"

I seem to recall they've managed it with football, cricket, motorsports and flight simulators in games, and many more complex scenarios in real life! And the game IS the umpire so the crash never happens.

As fgilson mentions, more traditional toys are being replaced by digital ones. Assessement should perhaps consider how much time, effort and cost it takes to get a new player up and running - at a guess £150 (figs, paint, brushes, rules) and hours of painting?

[peterrjohnston]

Occassionally some names are made up, like Kylie, and somebody is taught to speak funny.

I have no objections for Kylie representing the Australian continent if she wants to start wargaming...

[hammy]

Four? Have you wargamed in South America or Asia?

I can remember you going to Africa, North America and Europe (the last one every Monday...)

Whereabouts in Asia or South America have you gone?

I have been to Asia but not wargamed there (that was rather remiss I have to admit).

There are players in South America so maybe one day.

The fourth as Phil has rightly guessed is Australia which was a continent when I was at school.

[philqw78]

I have no objections for Kylie representing the Australian continent if she wants to start wargaming...

But she'd still have to pretend to be antipodean, so she wouldn't be much of a challenge for you Peter.

[IainMcNeil]

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to make a flight simulator that actually works! And a flight simulator is just a physics model, not a gaming system! Cricket and football have stunningly simple rules compared to FoG.

The game cannot be an umpire. If the rules dont cover what happens it probably crashes. This is how programming works! Code can only deal with things you have thought of. As the rules dont cover every possible situation you need to arbitrate when these situations come up. In Programming terms that is an "Unhanlded Exception". I don;t think you grasp the scale of the issues involved and you don't need to. You just have to trust that we do

[dave_r]

The fourth as Phil has rightly guessed is Australia which was a continent when I was at school.

Not when I went to school - there are seven:

- Europe
- Asia
- North America
- South America
- Africa
- Antarctica
- Arctic*

Australia isn't in one of those

* some people don't count this as it is not actually a land mass.

[MatthewP]

It was known as Austral Asia when I was a bairn and it was classed as a contintinent. Although to be honest, coming from Scarborough, everything outside of Yorkshire was simply 'abroard'.