Joerock22 (Allies) v. Ftgcritt2 (Axis) - The War is Over

[gerones]

Yep. I find that I can usually get 6-8 subs by late 1941 and still have a strong Barbarossa. But that's only if I don't do anything else, like invade England or North Africa. If things are going well I can build a few more in 1942-43.

What is the value though, of building more subs that late? By that time the Allies will have enough range with their bombers that they can cover all of the Atlantic. So, the cost of repairing subs will exceed what damage you can inflict. Of course, having them around as a threat does force bombers to be on station for this duty, but is there a need to build more than the 6-8 from the early war?

You as the axis can evade from All¡ed bombers by changing your area of "hunting": if you note that are lots of bombers in Greenland-Iceland-North Great Britain area you can move your subs to operate in the central Atlantic area and then on.

1942 is not late in my opinion for the german submarines to be effective and keep in mind that the convoys are bigger in PP´s in 1942 and on so if you manage to build
a large submarine force (as it historically happens) you can really interfere in the allied plans.

[joerock22]

What is the value though, of building more subs that late? By that time the Allies will have enough range with their bombers that they can cover all of the Atlantic. So, the cost of repairing subs will exceed what damage you can inflict. Of course, having them around as a threat does force bombers to be on station for this duty, but is there a need to build more than the 6-8 from the early war?

Keeping the Allied bombers and/or DDs occupied is a huge benefit. Eventually the Allied player will want to focus his Strats on bombing German production, and when he does the subs can be effective again. That, combined with the convoy steps you sink, makes it worthwhile to maintain a sub fleet of 8-10 u-boats, maybe more if things are going really well. I always focus on the Soviet convoy in 1941 and beyond, with the British convoys more targets of opportunity.

You guys must be more efficient than me. I can generally get 6 subs built; but one thing I like to do is to deploy a three bombers, of which at least 1 is a strategic bomber, a fighter and leader to and around Bergen, Norway. Then use 3 to 5 u-boats under this air umbrella to interdict the Murmansk convoy. If the allies move escorts in to protect the convoy then I go after the escorts to discourage this in later turns. If they don't then I use the u-boats and air to destroy the Murmansk convoy. In a game I just finished as the axis I used this strategy. The allies in 1941 tried to protect the convoy and I made them paid. After that I stopped most of the PPs from the Murmansk convoys from getting through until the allies finally got the upper hand there in the fall of 1944.

That’s an interesting strategy, and it can be pretty effective, as I’ve discovered when my opponent used something similar. But there are two reasons I don’t do this:
1. It takes air units away from other fronts where I think they can be more useful.
2. During bad weather, the Allied Strats can still bomb the u-boats because the fighter air attack value is halved and they usually won’t cause that much damage.

[joerock22]

September 25, 1942

The Axis did a good job of covering key landing zones in Greece. I spotted a German Tac in Yugoslavia, so I can only assume there are fighters as well. I abandoned the landings and moved back to southern Italy. I really want to clear out the toe of the boot so I can get supply from Messina. I don't think Frank will be able to cover every hex this time, but he might. It probably looks like I'm running around with my head cut off, but I really don't want to do a landing unles I can be almost assured of ultimate success. I'm being very cautious because it's only 1942, and I have no Tacs. Can you guess what the British and Americans are going to be spending their resources on for awhile? Some for the Med and some for England, probably. I'm hatching a possible plan: dual invasions of northern and southern (Vichy) France in 1943.

But I have many preparations to make: Tacs for both theatres, ground units for England, O'Connor for England...I don't know if I'll have enough resources, especially with the subs still denying Britain convoys. All 4 British Strats have been sent back to anti-sub duty, and have taken the heat off the Soviet convoy for now. The 3 American Strats are bombing Germany, and this turn the upgraded (Lv. 4 Dog Fight) RAF fighters finally achieved even results with the Luftwaffe. The Russians continue to focus on building up their air force: so far completed and or in the queue I have 6 fighters and 5 Tacs.

[trulster]

Yep. I find that I can usually get 6-8 subs by late 1941 and still have a strong Barbarossa. But that's only if I don't do anything else, like invade England or North Africa. If things are going well I can build a few more in 1942-43.

What is the value though, of building more subs that late? By that time the Allies will have enough range with their bombers that they can cover all of the Atlantic. So, the cost of repairing subs will exceed what damage you can inflict. Of course, having them around as a threat does force bombers to be on station for this duty, but is there a need to build more than the 6-8 from the early war?

You as the axis can evade from All¡ed bombers by changing your area of "hunting": if you note that are lots of bombers in Greenland-Iceland-North Great Britain area you can move your subs to operate in the central Atlantic area and then on.

1942 is not late in my opinion for the german submarines to be effective and keep in mind that the convoys are bigger in PP´s in 1942 and on so if you manage to build
a large submarine force (as it historically happens) you can really interfere in the allied plans.

Well, in 43 the Allies can cover all of central Atlantic (don't forget about the Azores). IMO more value in spending PPs on building fighters at that point rather than new subs. Of course existing ones should be kept alive.

[trulster]

Wow, one ballsy invasion of Italy. Even though you have a bunch of units it looks like you will face huge losses as well, since it will take some time before they get any supply sources. A couple of German units could wreak havoc on the beachheads, but hopefully they are well stuck into Russia!

[joerock22]

Wow, one ballsy invasion of Italy. Even though you have a bunch of units it looks like you will face huge losses as well, since it will take some time before they get any supply sources. A couple of German units could wreak havoc on the beachheads, but hopefully they are well stuck into Russia!

Yes, landing without a supply source is always risky. I have a feeling I'm just posturing here, forcing Frank to use rail points and show his hand. Give him credit: he has prepared very well for Allied action in the Med. The only place I'm really looking to land is the toe of Italy, but I'm hoping he doesn't realize it. The other transports will serve mainly as I diversion, or if he leaves that northern beach complete undefended, I could see a large landing there. We'll see how Frank reacts.

[rkr1958]

Wow, one ballsy invasion of Italy. Even though you have a bunch of units it looks like you will face huge losses as well, since it will take some time before they get any supply sources. A couple of German units could wreak havoc on the beachheads, but hopefully they are well stuck into Russia!

Yes, landing without a supply source is always risky. I have a feeling I'm just posturing here, forcing Frank to use rail points and show his hand. Give him credit: he has prepared very well for Allied action in the Med. The only place I'm really looking to land is the toe of Italy, but I'm hoping he doesn't realize it. The other transports will serve mainly as I diversion, or if he leaves that northern beach complete undefended, I could see a large landing there. We'll see how Frank reacts.

I know you don't have a lot of strategic bombers to spare but have you considered going after cities with rail capability to stress his rail network?

[joerock22]

I know you don't have a lot of strategic bombers to spare but have you considered going after cities with rail capability to stress his rail network?

I have reduced Essen and Paris to limited production, but those are really the only two cities I can hope to reach at this time. The Luftwaffe will cut me to pieces if I try to hit Hamburg. Because the Russian front is inactive, Frank can use his air units in the west. That won't be the case for too much longer, however. The he will have to decide whether to have air parity in the east or the west; he can't possibly do both.

[joerock22]

October 15, 1942

Axis forces block off nearly every landing beach in Italy, so the Western Allies abandon their amphibious invasion for now. I have to compliment Frank on his excellent defensive efforts. My new plan is a three-prong attack in spring 1943: the Russians from the east, the British landing in northern France, and British and American forces invading Vichy France. I hope to overwhelm the Axis defenses and prevent Frank from defending every front as well as he did here. I may move some of my navy back into the Atlantic to join the small force there. Hopefully I can get some American tanks for northern France, as well as Tacs.

I expect a quiet winter. The Germans are so close to the Polish border that I don't think it's worth it to attack with the Russians in the winter. I haven't caught the Axis out of position like I did last winter. They will be heavily dug in, and I want tanks and bombers at peak effectiveness when I finally unleash the Russian bear. The Russians are going to have to win this war for me; they have the shortest distance to travel and don't have to make any amphibous landings. The western Allies will probably only achieve some success when Frank is forced to ship units east to defend Berlin from the Soviets.

[rkr1958]

October 15, 1942

Axis forces block off nearly every landing beach in Italy, so the Western Allies abandon their amphibious invasion for now. I have to compliment Frank on his excellent defensive efforts. My new plan is a three-prong attack in spring 1943: the Russians from the east, the British landing in northern France, and British and American forces invading Vichy France. I hope to overwhelm the Axis defenses and prevent Frank from defending every front as well as he did here. I may move some of my navy back into the Atlantic to join the small force there. Hopefully I can get some American tanks for northern France, as well as Tacs.

I expect a quiet winter. The Germans are so close to the Polish border that I don't think it's worth it to attack with the Russians in the winter. I haven't caught the Axis out of position like I did last winter. They will be heavily dug in, and I want tanks and bombers at peak effectiveness when I finally unleash the Russian bear. The Russians are going to have to win this war for me; they have the shortest distance to travel and don't have to make any amphibous landings. The western Allies will probably only achieve some success when Frank is forced to ship units east to defend Berlin from the Soviets.

The western allies can draw resources and rail points away from the Russian front. Also, it's only 1942 so they still have time to get to Berlin or at least knock Italy out of the game. If you can coordinate a landing with a major Russian offensive in the spring it seems to me that Frank won't be able to fully defend against both.

[joerock22]

November 4, 1942

Intercepted communication from an Italian officer stationed in Italy:

"I am sure [the western Allies] will be back. But [they] will have to find a drier, more Hannibalesque route into Italy."

I wonder if my opponent knows that I have already settled on a more Hannibalesque strategy. I won't invade Spain, but Vichy France is the new target. I purchased O'Connor for England and Bradley for the Med. I have finished expanding the Russian air force for now; in 3 turns it will consist of 8 fighters and 6 tacs. I hope to get at least 16 tanks for the spring, and perhaps a few more air units. I will hit the Axis hard in 3 places and hopefully the war will be over by mid-1944. I wish we could fast-forward through the next few months, but I still have lots of preparations to make.

[joerock22]

January 3, 1942

I'm puting this AAR on hiatus until things get interesting again. Right now I'm just making preparations for spring and playing cat and mouse with u-boats in the Atlantic. I just sunk one this turn after guessing right with the Russian convoy. That made me very happy.

[rkr1958]

November 4, 1942
I have finished expanding the Russian air force for now; in 3 turns it will consist of 8 fighters and 6 tacs. I hope to get at least 16 tanks for the spring, and perhaps a few more air units.

That's quite a force. No plans for a winter offensive in Russia then? I guess the coordination with Torch is the driving factor. So, I guess we can expect Torch in the Spring then?

By the way, I just noticed that my little guy to the left now is riding a white horse. Cool. I like it.

[joerock22]

Yep, you an Auxiliary Cavalry now. Give me that horse, and we could trade guys.

Nope, no winter attacks. I'll wait and get all the upgrades possible before unleashing the Russians. Hopefully I can blitz him and kill a bunch of tank units on the first turn of the offensive.

If you mean Torch as in an invasion of North Africa, that probably won't happen. I meant an invasion of southern France. But North Africa will activate, won't it? Hmm...I don't think I have the forces to effectively do both southern France and North Africa. The Free French can apply pressure into Morocco, but that's probably all I'll do there. The Vichy BBs aren't a major concern; I'll deal with them when and if they venture out of hiding.

[joerock22]

March 24, 1943

Well, this just got a whole lot more interesting! A message from my opponent:

"It was just too scary for me to have Vichy France sitting there undefended right next door to Italy. With only 4 garrisons for the defense of the country, it would have been too easy for you to take Marseilles in one turn and then drive on Italy to take your third and final Italian city. So that is why I began the occupation of southern France this turn by taking Nice, Lyons, and Toulouse. Marseilles should fall next turn."

My reply message:

"A shrewd move. You'll be interested to know that I was planning to land in Vichy France in May. I'm not so sure Marseilles will fall though. You should only be able to attack it with 2 ground units, and one of those is a tank across a river. With a little luck, I think it could hold out. "

Also, he doesn’t appear to have much air support in the area, which may cost him. And if Marseilles does hold out, I have troops in position to land and occupy the city, as well as exploit any Axis weaknesses along the coastline (see screenshot). I am not afraid to land a few units away from a city, as my offensives in Russian and northern France are about to begin. Frank will soon have three fronts to fight on so I don’t fear him focusing too much firepower on any one front.

Assuming that Frank does capture Marseilles next turn, there are both positives and negatives to his move for me. On the plus side, both Vichy France and Free France are now on my side. I get a great airbase in Corsica for free. I get more naval units and a much-needed tank from the Free French a couple turns early. The only real downside is that now Frank can make landing in Vichy France more difficult, and I probably won’t capture a city too easily. But now he has more territory to cover, and I think he will soon find his defenses stressed to the breaking point.

The British develop Dog Fight Lv. 5 and upgrade their fighters in England. The Russians are nearly finished with their winter upgrades:
Corps – lv. 7
Mechs – lv. 8
Tanks – lv. 11
Fighters – lv. 7
Tacs – lv. 6
All of my ground units have received significant attack upgrades which should help in the coming campaign, and my fighters aren’t as good as the Luftwaffe but should prevail with sheer force of numbers (I have 9-10 of them, which is probably more than Germany has on the entire map).

[Peter Stauffenberg]

With the Germans stuck in southern France to capture Marseilles you can land in western France with less resistance. If the Germans move to western France you can instead land in southern France in force. You have a time window until Marseilles falls. Then it will be harder.

I think it's very risky for the Axis to attack Vichy France from 1943 and later. You give the Allies several new units, territory and extra production. You need to turns to clear southern France and during that time you're vulnerable to Allied activity elsewhere.

If the Axis wants to take Vichy they should do it in 1942 because then you have the forces needed and the Allies aren't strong enough to land in France. But you would look silly to attack Vichy France just before the Allies would initiate Torch. So attacking Vichy as the Axis only becomes a possibility after you know the Allies won't launch Torch. That is in 1943 or later and you take a risk doing so.

The Allies will rarely take a lot of southern France before the Germans can respond by sending their strategic reserve to the area. You can rail units to Toulouse and Nice if Marseilles falls on turn 1. If Marseilles doesn't fall then you can hopefully rail German units to Marseilles and hold the city for quite some time. The key to prevent a disaster for the Axis is to have a strategic reserve (both land and air units) in the are. You can also send Italian subs to the Marseilles and Nice areas to prevent the Allies from getting transports there. You will get a warning because the Allied DD's will sweep subs and then you can get units closer to southern France (Turin, Bordeaux etc.).

I would actually welcome an Allied attack upon southern France. They use up invasion capacity and you can defeat the invaders if you respond quickly. Remember that the Allies won't have air support over Marseilles except from CV's. They need Corsica to have fighters over the area. You can have bombers on Sardinia. But you know beforehand if the Allies have invaded Sicily and Sardinia. Then you know the Allies will alnd somewhere else soon.

I think the Allies should take Northern Africa and the Med islands before going to southern France. Then the Germans will defend there, but since you have also landed in mainland Italy, threaten to land in western France and the Russians are attacking heavily then the Germans can't be strong everywhere. If they overdefend southern France then you land somewhere else instead. The ley to the Allies is to land where the Germans are weak.

[joerock22]

With the Germans stuck in southern France to capture Marseilles you can land in western France with less resistance. If the Germans move to western France you can instead land in southern France in force. You have a time window until Marseilles falls. Then it will be harder.

My problem is that I'm 1-2 turns away from being fully ready to launch a landing force in the Atlantic. I probably have about 6 ground units ready to debark next turn, with 3 ready for deployment. I spent British and American resources over the winter on tactical bombers. I would have been ready for May, but I don't know if I can be ready for April. It might be worth it just to put a few transports in the water next turn to see how Frank reacts.

I agree with everything else you said, by the way.

[joerock22]

April 13, 1943

Marseilles did fall, and because of the strength of the Axis forces in the area, I decided not to land any troops. But the transports remained on station. Next turn I will move to land in northern France, Italy, and southern France. Frank will have to decide where he wants to sent his forces. I doubt he will have enough units to cover everywhere, especially with the Russians officially on the move in the east. The Red Army advanced to within one hex of the Axis line, and a handful of transports debarked from Finland to threaten landings behind enemy lines. The Russians also received Dog Fight Lv. 4 just in time, and the fighters were all upgraded.

Newly upgraded British CVs damaged an Italian Tac and German fighter in northern Italy, while the three fighters in the area received upgrades. So I will be at full air strength everywhere next turn, and ready to unleash everything I have on the Axis.

[trulster]

Wow, I am not sure there is such a thing as having too many units, but your Red Army may be it! Victory seems assured, but maybe rather have more air units than land units who won't come into play?

[joerock22]

Wow, I am not sure there is such a thing as having too many units, but your Red Army may be it! Victory seems assured, but maybe rather have more air units than land units who won't come into play?

I haven't built any land units except tanks in almost a year. In hindsight, I wish I had purchased less corps and mechs, but I wanted to have enough for a double line in case the Germans attacked in 1942. Having extra units means I don't necessarily have to repair damaged ones; I can spend those PPs on more air units intead. I know from experience that the Russians need a lot of bombers to breach the Ostwall.