The classic army of Landsknechts with Gensdarmes would be the French army of 1515 at Marignano. Some 17000 Landsknechts - among them the some 5000 strong Black Band - Francis and all the French Gensdarmes he could bring on battling some 20000 Swiss. The Battle of Giants, they called it...

In the ...

If what we are saying is that massed cavalry armies routinely beat late 17th C armies, Swiss, Tercios and the rest, with comparatively little risk of a reversal, then the implication is that either the points values or more likely the unit gradings are wrong.

It could also be a question of the ...

Found it. The rulebook gives exactly this list, but says only "Imperialist". Its actually a "Caroline Imperial" list, indicating that its the one of Pavia that battled the French there.

Actually the Caroline armies in Italy usually had a higher portion of Landsknechts, especially at Pavia. But ...

I used the tool to create my own army list, worked out quite well. Fine Work!

The "Maximilian Imperial" starter list is not conform to the actual list in TaT, though.

While you're at it can you remove the anomaly created by: "uncontrolled artillery does not count as enemy to either side"? (p 127)

Would it not be better to add "uncontrolled artillery will be captured by moving into cohesion" - instead of charging empty guns...

This would avoid the anomaly ...

Alas Giovanni was rarely (not until the campaign of 26/27 in command of the army, so he cannot be the C-in-C. Nor has he given us an indication that he WAS a GC, probably due to a lack of opporunity before his death.
We could introduce this as a special rule (GC as sub-commander) or simply make him ...

Here is a rework of the list, with the household gensdarmes in a "speculative" category and both heavy and medium artillery. I propose you use medium vs. contemporary opponents, and heavy artillery for matches out of their timescope.

From FOG
- Swiss Confederates
- Ordonnance French
- Early Maximilian (Later low countries from 1477)
- Condotta Italian

Others
- Early Italian Wars French
- Italian states: Milan, Venetia, Borgia Papal, Florence, Naples, others
- HRE Friedrich

I will leave out the final battles of the ...

Artillery - I am not sold on the availability of "heavy" artillery to the Burgundians. While they surely had some for siege purposes, their field pieces would imho be classed as medium when compared to the "heavy" pieces of the later armies.

I have added the option for one superior bow and fielding ...

>I think one pike block is enough.

The idea was that Burgund potentially could field more pikemen from the low countries.



>Can't see any reason why they can't be a keil.

Imho the rules for the keil reflect the emulation of the Swiss usage of pikes. Afaik the first time this actually worked for ...

CG?

>I can't see any historical justification for elite Gensdarmes based upon their battlefield performance.

I admit I only put them thus to differentiate Household from Ordonnance. Otherwise they could be subsumized. On the other hand with a general army list we have to consider the possible ...

I will move the debate on the Burgundian Ordonnance over to the other thread.

What other FOG armies justifiy a FOG-R representation?

Ordonnance French
Swiss?
Early Maximilian army. German 13-1500 seems too broad.

Perhaps the FOGR lists for these are sufficient?

Here is the SECOND draft of the Burgundian Ordonnance for FOG-R:
(The first postings after this will probably handle issues that are already changed)

http://schudak.de/tmp/bo.gif

Sorry for the quality, but I do not want to compete with original products :-)
As you can see, its available as an ...

I think I will start with this one...

I make up a new point cost list and post it for comments (and put it down if Slitherine/Osprey says so).

To start with...

Do you think that the household gendarmes are better represented as elite (like the Welsche Garde) or simply superior Gensdarmes?

I am ...

To start with, I will read through your Murten-scenario and comment upon it soon...

Timmy, any input will be greatly appreciated. I think I will make a try once I get back a copy of "Storm of Arrows". I lost mine (probably loaned it out and forgot about it), but hopefully I will get a replacement soon.

I have also contemplated to do battle or campaign specific army lists (or ...

Well, this nice little corner is not exactly well used, but...

I was wondering wether it makes sense to create a standard conversion for older lists, mainly "Storm of arrows" to use with FOG-R?

Where will the point cost differ?

Or is there a chance that a "book of lost scrolls" for FOG-R will ...

Another thing - in (for example) the Caroline Imperialist list it states (in Germany et al) that you must have as many Landsknects as Colunela foot.

Note that (for armies in Flanders or Germany) you need to have at least as many BATTLEGROUPS, not bases. That means that 4 Landsknecht arquebusiers ...

Delbruck wrote:contempary Austrians, Bavarians, Saxons, and Anglo-Dutch have armored cavalry in FogR.

Then I agree that it makes no sense to classify similarly armoured units otherwise.

"Armour" in the context of a system that includes the most heavily armoured cavalry known to us, the fully plated and barded Gensdarmes, is a term that is probably not appropriate for units that wore a cuirass and - perhaps - a helmet. I know that full Gensdarmes are "fully armoured", but "armoured ...