Slitherine

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:25 am Did the lancers charge across a stream or rough ground?

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:33 pm I think I managed to recreate this one in hotseat. Strangely the impact POA lists 'flank charge +50' and nothing else, no lance vs light spear, no height difference.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:15 pm Non-disrupting flank charge gets (at least) +50 net POA regardless of other POAs that would normally apply. (Unless the net POA would be higher than +50 if it wasn't a flank charge). So it doesn't report all of the POAs, it just reports Flank/Rear Attack and whatever the net POA is.

If the cavalry had been horse archers rather than light spear cavalry, it would (I think) have reported Flank/Rear Attack: +75 POA. (100 POA for lancers - 25 for enemy uphill)

Paul59 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:28 am Had the cavalry already evaded that turn?

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:11 am I guess thre are two questions in OP :
1) Can a superior armoured cavalry unit defeat flanking superior armoured lancers ? Does Cohesion drop apply in this case ?
2) Would cavalry always flee a flank charge from non-light cavalry ?

I don't know the balance of strength between those two units both during the charge and the melee (however, the superior armoured cavalry is a good one and they had a height advantage of +25 POA), but here are my first thought :

1) If I am not mistaken, this is a case without cohesion drop and the impact combat is not fought on a guaranteed net POA of +200 to the flank attackers.

Manual, p. 74 : "If the flank-charged unit was neither already in close combat, nor evaded this turn, or one of the above exceptions applies (NB : which do not refer to non-light cavalry charged by non-light cavalry), the unit does not drop a cohesion level. The flank chargers instead get a guaranteed net POA of +50 if their non-flanking net POA would be less than +50."

As for the melee phase, I don't have the data of the strength balance between the two units (%Win, %Lose).

However, what happened to you seems to be a matter a (bad) luck. This day, the enemy superior armoured cavalry was better (a matter of dice).

2) No fleeing is automatic.

Manual, p. 73 : "(...) non-lancer cavalry (...) can attempt to evade charges. The AI decides for the (player or AI) unit whether it will evade, based on its chance of winning the combat and its chance of successfully getting away."

Has this happened to me? I don't remember but it does not surprise me much.

(edit)
I've just checked it, the height advantage +25 POA correspond to a "height differential of 75 or less" (p. 90).
Even when flanking, charging a cavalry unit with a height differential as high as 75 seems quite daring, in the absolute

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:34 pm Now that I think about it, with the way its currently calculated, equal quality lancers charging un-engaged light spear cavalry on flat ground would have a +50 POA regardless of whether it charged frontally or from the flank. That doesn't seem right.

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:24 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:15 pm Non-disrupting flank charge gets (at least) +50 net POA regardless of other POAs that would normally apply. (Unless the net POA would be higher than +50 if it wasn't a flank charge). So it doesn't report all of the POAs, it just reports Flank/Rear Attack and whatever the net POA is.

If the cavalry had been horse archers rather than light spear cavalry, it would (I think) have reported Flank/Rear Attack: +75 POA. (100 POA for lancers - 25 for enemy uphill)

But shouldn't this case more accurately be: +50 flank charge +50 for lance vs light spear -25 for charging uphill = +75 POA?

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:34 pm Now that I think about it, with the way its currently calculated, equal quality lancers charging un-engaged light spear cavalry on flat ground would have a +50 POA regardless of whether it charged frontally or from the flank. That doesn't seem right.

Paul59 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:13 pm So either the cavalry standing it's ground is a highly unlikely event and the OP was just extremely unlucky, or there was something else stopping the Cavalry from evading, or there was something else about the matchup (that we don't know about) that made evading not necessary.

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:52 pm

Paul59 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:13 pm So either the cavalry standing it's ground is a highly unlikely event and the OP was just extremely unlucky, or there was something else stopping the Cavalry from evading, or there was something else about the matchup (that we don't know about) that made evading not necessary.

All of the light spear cavalry are withing the charge reach of 2 or 3 lancers. I've seen superior armored horse archers sitting behind rough ground run from a frontal charge by average horse archers, simply because there was another light spear horse within charge reach.

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:52 pm

Paul59 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:13 pm So either the cavalry standing it's ground is a highly unlikely event and the OP was just extremely unlucky, or there was something else stopping the Cavalry from evading, or there was something else about the matchup (that we don't know about) that made evading not necessary.

All of the light spear cavalry are withing the charge reach of 2 or 3 lancers. I've seen superior armored horse archers sitting behind rough ground run from a frontal charge by average horse archers, simply because there was another light spear horse within charge reach.