Slitherine

This is first post from me to beta forum as I've just been selected I want to contribute as much as the others

30 second impression all things looks green as I grab tutorial scenario, after 5 minutes here are my impression :

1. IMO tutorial scenario needs more challenging or else be more entertaining with stories / background, I like the background story of bootcamp since it's done in 4 turns or so
2. I notice bunker unit within tutorial scenario map 1 and start to ask myself whether I free to roam near it or not, then I figure out it was just a terrain
3. End turn button is not quite right at top of the screen, trying to figure out where it was at first, only because I've play PG then I did search for clock icon
4. Notice the weather condition now and next day I suppose on top right
5. Menu placement for options, toggle Air unit / land unit is not easily discoverable since it's too small while the function was quite often being use, of course I was hoping a popup / tooltip when I was hovering the tool bar on right panel since I didn't know their function yet, but then I realise I didnt like popup / tool tip if there was any
6. Moving around with right mouse button instead of Left Mouse button was different things but still manageable

10 minutes later I was in a campaign for Poland

1. I like the troops being auto load on transport and display the movement indicator on map
2. Tanks movement are somewhat slower rate than any of Motorized Infantry ( inf with transport ), this was different with PG1, on PG1 motorized infantry cannot move that far unless using road terrain, in Panzer Corps I started to think Infantry was quite mobile than it used to be on PG1 altough on plain terrain
3. There weren't so much forest terrain on map for Poland
4. Artillery unit was able to move even if they are attacked several times, I even have case when I used 3 infantry just to destroy 1 Poland arty unit, that way the situation like ping - pong problem
5. After couples of turn My Messcherschmidt was MIA, I thought it was because of running out of fuel, but the indication of this was not clear, there is a fuel icon with numbers but didnt know how to read them since my Tac bombers is 0/46 indication but not MIA, the Figther was 0/some numbers but MIA, I do notice that there're red hex with cross for both of them when I want to move the air unit, but again I don't know its mean.
IMO, the low fuel for air unit warning can be enhanced with colors instead like its used to be in PG1. When an air unit running low on fuel, indicates it on the fuel icon on right panel with red color this can be better
6. After moving and then attacking with air unit, I cannot select the air unit anymore. I've tried to display the air unit on map also with air/land toggle but air unit is not selectable. I want to do this in order to review the air unit stats without having to place my mouse over it constantly
7. Several battles have interesting result with animation on map, there some anomaly with certain battles like :
my infantry attacks poland infantry
7.a.first attack was done by my infantry then theres smoke on poland infantry
7.b.second attack was done by poland infantry then theres smoke on my infantry
7.c.Poland infantry gone, it's destroyed
On my user perspective destroyed unit should haven't fired a bullet right ? wasnt this a case which the defender is not reacting to attack by offensive unit ?
Because there're a case which both unit fired together with both smoke being displayed on both unit. I hope this was just a matter of not implementing the battle sequence animation yet, since the defensive infantry would have been cheered too much for their empty stand while they should have been mourning because of the battle result.
8. Unit purchasing have graphic not displayed problem on infantry unit, I think this is the case with content
9. Unit purchasing should be with comparable display result on 2 units to help player decide which unit they want to buy
10.When I hit Escape key, nothing happen while I was hoping a menu to save and load can be pops out ? Or perhaps quick save / quick load

Thats all right now I think, my first batch of play and enjoyment was 30 minutes which is quite short. I didnt mention several graphics defect since I believe this was the stage on enhancing them, instead playing and user experience was more of my concern.

I just fired it up for a quick look.

- I love the amount of scenarios and the variatie of them.
- Also love the terrain graphics
- Sprites are very beautifull
- Game works very well on my netbook!
- Love the options for turning supply and FOG on/of
- Like the amount of different units and they are easy to recodnize
- Controls are very easy to understand, really great!
- UI seems easy to understand
- really like railway units

Some other things:

- Infantry can be hard to spot when in cities
- Same for arty
- Pressing ESC does not bring up the main menu
- End Turn button should have a more prominent position

More to come
-

Hey guys, welcome to the forum and thanks for the first feedback. Some comments.

terrymulijana wrote: 1. IMO tutorial scenario needs more challenging or else be more entertaining with stories / background, I like the background story of bootcamp since it's done in 4 turns or so

We definitely don't want to make it more challenging, so we'll try to make it more fun.

terrymulijana wrote: 5. Menu placement for options, toggle Air unit / land unit is not easily discoverable since it's too small while the function was quite often being use, of course I was hoping a popup / tooltip when I was hovering the tool bar on right panel since I didn't know their function yet, but then I realise I didnt like popup / tool tip if there was any

On my PC all buttons do have tooltips. Did you have a different experience?

terrymulijana wrote: 2. Tanks movement are somewhat slower rate than any of Motorized Infantry ( inf with transport ), this was different with PG1, on PG1 motorized infantry cannot move that far unless using road terrain, in Panzer Corps I started to think Infantry was quite mobile than it used to be on PG1 altough on plain terrain

If you mean trucks, they should not move as fast as tanks, unless there is a road to the target hex.

terrymulijana wrote: 4. Artillery unit was able to move even if they are attacked several times, I even have case when I used 3 infantry just to destroy 1 Poland arty unit, that way the situation like ping - pong problem

Emm... why wouldn't artillery move if it attacked several times (unless it is destroyed of course)?

terrymulijana wrote: 6. After moving and then attacking with air unit, I cannot select the air unit anymore. I've tried to display the air unit on map also with air/land toggle but air unit is not selectable. I want to do this in order to review the air unit stats without having to place my mouse over it constantly

To allow selecting a unit always might be a good idea.

terrymulijana wrote: 7. Several battles have interesting result with animation on map, there some anomaly with certain battles like :
my infantry attacks poland infantry
7.a.first attack was done by my infantry then theres smoke on poland infantry
7.b.second attack was done by poland infantry then theres smoke on my infantry
7.c.Poland infantry gone, it's destroyed

We'll make this anim more clear.

terrymulijana wrote: 9. Unit purchasing should be with comparable display result on 2 units to help player decide which unit they want to buy

Good point. What if we make it like on the main screen (one column for selected unit, another one for hover unit)?

terrymulijana wrote: 10.When I hit Escape key, nothing happen while I was hoping a menu to save and load can be pops out ? Or perhaps quick save / quick load

Surtur wrote: - Pressing ESC does not bring up the main menu
-

Right now Esc is bound to undo move action. We can change that to Menu, but what hotkey would you suggest for undo?

Surtur wrote: - Infantry can be hard to spot when in cities
- Same for arty

Agreed. What solution would you propose for this? Ideally without redesigning all units and tiles?

Surtur wrote: - End Turn button should have a more prominent position
-

Any specific suggestions where to place it?

We can change that to Menu, but what hotkey would you suggest for undo?

Backspace?

I would prefer all mid scenario hot keys to be letters, so I vote for 'U'.
Esc is good for main menu, f keys for things like screenshots.

Easy way to make everyone happy, let the users remap the hot keys in the options menu. Then you can do whatever you want, and allow the individual players to change it if they don't like it.

untill the serial issue is solved i'm in the dark for now. But i wanted to ask a question about the units. I noticed on some screenshots, that not all the units have a flag on the lower left corner of the unit. Does the flag represent core units? takeing this from Surtur

Some other things:

- Infantry can be hard to spot when in cities
- Same for arty

Even that i have not played this yet, i did see that problem right off the bat. Not every unit is hard to see, but the citys do make it a little difficult. About the flags it would be nice to have a national flag on each unit and enemy's. Just to make it, easier on the eyes, with out the occasional blending in.

Captain are unit camouflage is to hide from the enemy not from are selves!!

Hey Hammer4000! Thanks for your feedback and for your efforts to help even without a working game in your hands!

Hammer4000 wrote:untill the serial issue is solved i'm in the dark for now. But i wanted to ask a question about the units. I noticed on some screenshots, that not all the units have a flag on the lower left corner of the unit. Does the flag represent core units?

Flags belong to cities not to units. We thought about showing two flags, one for terrain and one for unit, but concluded it would be too much. You rarely need to care about flags (it is enough to know if the unit belongs to axis or allies), and you can always see the flag in the UI panel when you hover a unit with mouse.

Hammer4000 wrote:Even that i have not played this yet, i did see that problem right off the bat. Not every unit is hard to see, but the citys do make it a little difficult.

We have strength labels, so you can tell that some unit is there, but it is hard to distinguish exact unit at times. I do agree that it is a problem. The question is, how to solve it? Any specific suggestions here?

A unit "glow" effect like we did in the earliest screenshots and we're also using in CTGW. For high contrast tiles only.

Hard to see infantry.

I want to zoom two more notches closer using the center scroll button. When I change the desk top from 1650x1080 to something a little smaller it is better.

I was thinking of adding a base to the infantry units so there are easy to see. I get use to it after awhile, but still would like to be able to zoom in a little closer.

Tool tip delay seems a little slow.

Could not find any hot keys other than two, P, N

No manual yet.

Played Poland then the first two tutorials.

Big complaint is weather! I can not tell the difference when looking at the icons in the upper right. Also, it can say dry or something else but still can not bomb or fight with planes.

Nice feature for ammo not being re-supplied when adjacent to enemy. However when I am out of ammo the AI never attacked me. I will have to keep an eye on their ammo. Maybe they were out too!

A couple of times when deploying troops or reviewing the menu bar gets stuck. Eventually you can get out of it.

The sea battle animation is good.

I don't like the delay in the animation when you do combat. A little shorter would be nice.

Scenarios appear to be tuff, thats good.

When a city is not a major point to be captured, it would be nice to give the AI a 50/50 chance of the unit coming out of the city to attack, if there is an advantage. Right now you can bypass any unit in a city. They will never come to play. For example you can have a land unit with combat strength 1,2,3 one hex away from a minor city and the AI will never come out to attack it, even when the AI combat strength value is 10.


So far very good.

We have strength labels, so you can tell that some unit is there, but it is hard to distinguish exact unit at times. I do agree that it is a problem. The question is, how to solve it? Any specific suggestions here?

A unit "glow" effect like we did in the earliest screenshots and we're also using in CTGW. For high contrast tiles only.

Adherbal took the words right out of my mouth, but i think that would be the best option, have some sort of light glow or outline,he couldent of said it better

An opaque circle base. Outline is Gold. Like Strategic Command.

Or perhaps make the square with combat value a little larger.

You get use to it but I always want to zoom in one more level. The unit graphics are excellent. Map can be made better. Always wanting to zoom in to see the unit.

Ja, now I use the combat value to tell if a unit is present in the hex.

Also, the white hexes for movement need to be softer, more opaque. That really would make the game better visually.

Which files can we change for the intensity of the white hexes?

well everything is under way now, just finished Poland and off to Norway(gulp) i remember the PG game, Norway was a hard nut to crack sometimes. My concerns are over battle animations, being a Beta as it is, i feel the speed of witch they play out, could go alittle faster. Moving units and all that stuff feels right for me, just the battle sequences.

IMO i think that when you attack, instead of hearing shots fired, a sec or so then a hit. It should be a instant hit.

So in other words as soon as you click a unit to attack, both you and the enemy should be hit instantly. I liked it at first, but when in Norway, it was slow for me, when the allies sent alot of there ships in, thats where it turned me off, haveing a Boom,tick tick Splash,tick explosion, fire back tick tick explosion. you get me?

Its been a long time,but if i remember right for PG, but if you turned off the battle amainations they had, then as soon as you attacked a unit, both you and them would have damage instantly, i kinda still like that method.

whats up with the sounds, the very move i made, i knew right off the bat, it was Commander Europe at war

I made a sticky for hot keys because they exist, but are undocumented at this time.

Rudankort wrote:Hey guys, welcome to the forum and thanks for the first feedback. Some comments.

terrymulijana wrote: 5. Menu placement for options, toggle Air unit / land unit is not easily discoverable since it's too small while the function was quite often being use, of course I was hoping a popup / tooltip when I was hovering the tool bar on right panel since I didn't know their function yet, but then I realise I didnt like popup / tool tip if there was any

On my PC all buttons do have tooltips. Did you have a different experience?

I think its because tooltip delay right now is not fast enough

Rudankort wrote:

terrymulijana wrote: 4. Artillery unit was able to move even if they are attacked several times, I even have case when I used 3 infantry just to destroy 1 Poland arty unit, that way the situation like ping - pong problem

Emm... why wouldn't artillery move if it attacked several times (unless it is destroyed of course)?

It's defeated I think and they're retreating 3 times ( which was not in the case when I play PG1, but of course if this is a tweak to have better artilery survival ability then this wasn't the case, but IMO defeated artillery should have been destroyed not retreating 3 times ? )

Rudankort wrote:

terrymulijana wrote: 9. Unit purchasing should be with comparable display result on 2 units to help player decide which unit they want to buy

Good point. What if we make it like on the main screen (one column for selected unit, another one for hover unit)?

Yes please

will play for beta test later this weekend, hope to catch more on play experience

Hello

What were your impression after 30 seconds, 5 minutes, 15 minutes and an hour.

30 seconds:
- Background screen during installation have big pixels (I have 1920x1200 native resolution); Either the installation window should be smaller, or the background should be in high res;

5 minutes:
- Tabs Scenario / Campaign look that they need a bit polishing; they work, but it lacks something (looks too simply); and on WUXGA it is a bit ...large;
- Is the same font everywhere? In some places it seems like the font is different;
- Main game window doesn't look centered too well; first game window (the one with new game / load game / multiplayer , etc) covers entire desktop, but during game it is not covered;
- Controls are different from Panzer General / PGF; hard to get used to it;
- artillery sound during battle is strange;

15 minutes:
- Rings with spikes (for victory points) look strange on a hex-based map; would it be better to have golden hex borders?
- Also "square" indicator of current unit I would replace with something that looks like hex ;
- "Previous unit" button doesn't seem to be useful or working;
- It is strange that some UI buttons are up the stats (fuel, ammo, etc), and others down from them;
- Hex sides are too delicate and hard to spot;
- Stats panel and some other labels needs small adjustment to positioning;
- animations are a bit strange; also would be good to have at least few kinds of them;
- animations / sounds of battle last too long;
- "move back" button doesn't seem to work for recon;

1 Hour:
- maps are smaller than in PG / PGF; battle rules are unknown; more information / guide is needed;
- I figured out it is possible to resize game window, but it takes a bit of time to make it bigger again - it is very slow when I try to make it larger;
- It is impossible to move mouse outside the game window; need to click on frame to start scrolling; after "scrolling" it is possible to move it;
- No minimalize / maximalize buttons for game window;

Performance. Is the game too slow on your PC? If yes, what problems exactly you experience, and what system configuration do you have?

For some reason, my CPU usage is very high; temperature during game skyrockets. Mentioned problems with game window scrolling - fast to make it smaller, very slow to resize it back.
Vista, Core 2 Duo.

Map graphics: the terrain map and the units. What did you like or not like. What could be improved? Can you see enough of the map, are the images too big/too small?

Units - maybe some border border to make them visible. Changing the color of hex - or border when there is unit on it would also work.
Maximum zoom feels slightly too much zoomed, minimal zoom is ok. Maybe there could be one thats in between of them.

Usability and UI of the main screen. Is it intuitively clear how to control the game? Is the UI convenient? Do you like the existing mouse interface, or would you prefer a different one? What useful information do you miss in the UI sidebar or the main map view?

"Next unit" and others should be the same size as the buttons that control units.
If I would have a choice, I would also include PG mouse interface - so the player could choose the one he likes more.
I miss the information about unit stats - it is for me more important than fuel or ammo - and I would replace those, or add them below. It is possible to use stats panel, but that makes such information in the other place, instead of all of stats in one place.
I miss supression info (it seems that it is in the game).

Game rules.

In PG it could be possible to destroy unit before it shots back. Here it can shot back, then disappear.

adherbal wrote:A unit "glow" effect like we did in the earliest screenshots and we're also using in CTGW. For high contrast tiles only.

Sorry, wanted to comment earlier, but was kind of occupied (winning our volleyball competition and celebrating).


Possible solution: WHen a unit is on a city, add a black line around the unit, some sort of cellshading
You could also make the city sprite transparant, while keeping the unit's oppesity up, so it will be easier to spot.

skarczew wrote:Hello

Hi Sebastian! Welcome to the forum.

skarczew wrote: - Is the same font everywhere? In some places it seems like the font is different;

We use a few fonts, but mostly Arial. Is there any problem?

skarczew wrote: - Main game window doesn't look centered too well; first game window (the one with new game / load game / multiplayer , etc) covers entire desktop, but during game it is not covered;

You mean there is a thin stripe of desktop, a couple pixels wide, correct?

skarczew wrote: - Rings with spikes (for victory points) look strange on a hex-based map; would it be better to have golden hex borders?

In the earlier versions of the beta we had golden hex borders, but from the list of people who had older version nobody complained that it was better. Anyone?

skarczew wrote: - Also "square" indicator of current unit I would replace with something that looks like hex ;

One issue here is that some units are actually bigger than hexes, and then they would intersect the border...

skarczew wrote: - "Previous unit" button doesn't seem to be useful or working;

Yep, not implemented yet.

skarczew wrote: - It is strange that some UI buttons are up the stats (fuel, ammo, etc), and others down from them;

Why is it so strange? We wanted to logically separate buttons related to selected unit (commands) and all other buttons...

skarczew wrote: - Hex sides are too delicate and hard to spot;

I've got a "strong" hex border from Lukas already, will add an option to choose between none, subtle and strong borders version...

skarczew wrote: - Stats panel and some other labels needs small adjustment to positioning;

What exactly needs to be adjusted here?

skarczew wrote: - I figured out it is possible to resize game window, but it takes a bit of time to make it bigger again - it is very slow when I try to make it larger;

Do you mean scaling with mouse wheel here or anything else?

skarczew wrote: - It is impossible to move mouse outside the game window; need to click on frame to start scrolling; after "scrolling" it is possible to move it;
- No minimalize / maximalize buttons for game window;

A proper window mode in the game is not done yet. How did you manage to scale the window? You are not supposed to do that.

skarczew wrote: For some reason, my CPU usage is very high; temperature during game skyrockets. Mentioned problems with game window scrolling - fast to make it smaller, very slow to resize it back.
Vista, Core 2 Duo.

I'll check this out.

skarczew wrote: Units - maybe some border border to make them visible. Changing the color of hex - or border when there is unit on it would also work.
Maximum zoom feels slightly too much zoomed, minimal zoom is ok. Maybe there could be one thats in between of them.

So, 100% zoom is too big for you? Interesting. So far, people only complained that they cannot zoom any more...

skarczew wrote: "Next unit" and others should be the same size as the buttons that control units.
If I would have a choice, I would also include PG mouse interface - so the player could choose the one he likes more.
I miss the information about unit stats - it is for me more important than fuel or ammo - and I would replace those, or add them below. It is possible to use stats panel, but that makes such information in the other place, instead of all of stats in one place.
I miss supression info (it seems that it is in the game).

All good points.

skarczew wrote: In PG it could be possible to destroy unit before it shots back. Here it can shot back, then disappear.

This is by design, but combat animation may look stupid a bit, I'll see what we can do...

@Rudankort:
Last few days were full of events for me ...I will try to make more detailed description about PzC issues soon.

Rudankort wrote: We use a few fonts, but mostly Arial. Is there any problem?

It looks better if fonts are similar. It is for consistency and better feeling .

Rudankort wrote: You mean there is a thin stripe of desktop, a couple pixels wide, correct?

Check out the screenshot:


When I first started the game, I could see the part of my desktop there - and you can see it even now . Later I figured out I can move the borders, but it still looks strange.
Windowed game without window buttons?

Rudankort wrote: In the earlier versions of the beta we had golden hex borders, but from the list of people who had older version nobody complained that it was better. Anyone?

Those circles just do not match hex game, imho. And golden-bordered hexes would match golden-bordered units .
Example:

Rudankort wrote: One issue here is that some units are actually bigger than hexes, and then they would intersect the border...

I think I have solution: active unit should get golden border (contour).


It can be thicker, be pulsing a bit - or something - but will make unit visible for sure.

Rudankort wrote: Why is it so strange? We wanted to logically separate buttons related to selected unit (commands) and all other buttons...

Yes, they are separated logically, but this is unwieldy ...Some of those buttons are used quite frequently (Next, Air/Ground), and they are smaller when compared to the buttons that are used not so often.
I'd better have all buttons grouped together, same size. Or if possible - make it configurable.

Rudankort wrote: I've got a "strong" hex border from Lukas already, will add an option to choose between none, subtle and strong borders version...

Great . Btw, I think that when zoomed out (small units), the borders are more visible than when zoomed in ...

Rudankort wrote: What exactly needs to be adjusted here?

I hope it gets clearer with this screenshot ... Red arrows are places that could be adjusted. Green arrows - my proposals. Sometimes those elements need to be moved just few pixels ...

Rudankort wrote: Do you mean scaling with mouse wheel here or anything else?

I mean resizing /scaling the window ...

Rudankort wrote: A proper window mode in the game is not done yet. How did you manage to scale the window? You are not supposed to do that.

No ?

Rudankort wrote: I'll check this out.

On the first screenshot you can see temperature, near the clock - unusual high for my laptop. It seems to be the similar problem the PGF has.

Rudankort wrote: So, 100% zoom is too big for you? Interesting. So far, people only complained that they cannot zoom any more...

Err, they were complaining that the units are "too small" or "too big" ?
(I never remember whether "big" scale means big units - or the other way )

Rudankort wrote: All good points.

Thanks. Looking forward to some changes.

Rudankort wrote: This is by design, but combat animation may look stupid a bit, I'll see what we can do...

I surfed forum a bit and it seems that only part of unit actually attacks before the enemy shots back. It may mean that the total destruction happened when both units were exchanging fire...
Anyway, is it possible that the enemy will be destroyed before it can react?

Yes an enemy can be destroyed before return fire. I have seen it.