Slitherine

Because Disney loved nazis, and loyalty in the republics goes to fascism, but is has to be hidden, so IRL republicans (I don't mean from the so called parties, which are rather monarchists, but true republicans) have to remove loyalty from the Star Wars Empire, so it becomes farther than true republic, which is against democracy (I don't mean the so called democratic parties, which are rather republicans) and prefer facism if a democracy is threatening the republican bourgeois freedom (of plunder).

In Spain 36, republicans prefer suicidaly to let Saragosa to nationalists than it becomes the 2nd barcelona.
The story of frog and scorpion.

pewp3w wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:51 am
How were the german uniforms the coolest?

I didn't want to write a wall of text , and didn't think it was necessary ?

Granted , yes , beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So it doesn't push credulity too far to imagine that what one thinks is pretty , another thinks is ugly.

.....

Really , I could fill a page with such caveats.

For example , I think the German helmet of WW II is pretty ---- If it is a size , or two sizes , too big. If the helmet fits just right , it makes your head look pudgy and excessively round , and makes you look bull - necked , even if you are none of those things.

So is it a pretty helmet ? Yes .... and no. At the same time.

Furthermore , I think that adding to the pudgy , round - headed , bull - necked , illusion was the rolled and crimped brim of the early war model helmet.

A softer line tends to give whatever is beneath it the appearance of a softer line too. Hence the illusion of a fat head.

Later , they quit rolling and crimping the brim of the helmet , to simplify and cheapen construction. This gave the helmet a sharper outline , and consequently gave the head and neck the appearance of being thin.

So you looked fashionably thinner ---- in a cheaper helmet.

Hmmm.....

I used to dislike American uniforms , 1939 - 1975 , because I thought they made you look like a plumber. I still think they make you look like a plumber . But now , for many reasons I won't go into , I LOVE American uniforms 1939 - 1975 BECAUSE they make you look like a plumber.

So much of the iconic Nazi look --- isn't Nazi at all.

The helmet , the field grey , the tunic type , the Doric columns on the collar , of course , pre - dated the NSDAP .

Sam Browne belts , riding boots or jack boots , and jodhpurs , were more universal than specifically German. You could see the same look in Bolivia and Persia.

So apparently more than a few somebodies , and not just in Germany , thought it looked rather nice.

Anyway , I tend to look at military fashion more in a Cosmopolitan Magazine frame of mind , little , or not at all , in an ideological frame of mind.

pewp3w wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:51 am it definitely is not the reason why the grand campaign is german. The grand campaign (and first campaign) is german, because they were the main actors of wwii. They were on the offensive for the first few years and fought all the time.
Imagine a Grand Campaign as any other country (or look at the other grand campaign as US):
USA: You won't even join the fight before 1942
UK: No fights in 39 really, in 1940 only battles you will lose, except if you decide to make scenarios in africa -> no battles in 41 and 42 except in africa
Soviets: No fights before 1941 (except maybe winter war) -> then basically only losing battles until 1942
France: Almost only losing in 1940 -> then basically no big battles at all (or just playing support roles)

When you are correct , you are correct , and I'm not going to say you aren't.

And that's correct.

( German uniforms were still pretty . And their machines were cool beans. )

( I actually prefer Italian tanks , planes and such. And most people seem to think they suck. Aesthetics not withstanding ? )

Kerensky wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:42 pm
It is interesting than you came to the conclusion that we did not think about that... when quite clearly we had by it's very mention. Why name drop Rommel as Reichsmarschall at all, it could have just been left out. Mentioning it in the writing leaves that door open that 'things are different'.

I did not come to the conclusion, I just said that it could be possible.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:42 pm So you guys saying 'Panzer Corps is Nazi game'. No it goes both ways. It's clearly German Wehrmacht and not Nazi.

Did not say that either. Although I think it's interesting that you apparently think that the wehrmacht and the nazis can be clearly be differentiated, when in reality there were huge overlaps.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:42 pm Change history by removing Hitler, which was the whole point of Valkyrie. They didn't remove Hitler as a means to winning the war, Germans attempted to remove Hitler because he was getting so many Germans killed.

The conspirators of the 20 july plot weren't one homogenous group. They wanted to make peace with the western allies, but further information remains unknown. They wanted hitler removed because he was an idiot and was responsible for getting millions of germans killed, but that does not necessarily mean that they wanted to end the war.

Hemi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:59 pm
A game of combined arms warfare cannot confront the ugly side of WW2 and Nazism because that side didn't occur on the battlefield. It's better left out if you can't deal with it appropriately.

Not to mention in many countries the game could not be sold if you included the symbols.

Countries that love nazis so much that they don't want to see them mocked and criticized, and doesn't want their true ugly side exposed to the world... why do we care about them again?

I know that's not the intention, I just find it ironic that they're falling into the same rhetorical traps that the Nazis loved to lay so much. The "double-talk" of nazism was one of the core ways it managed to be so radical and spread so far. Most of its language was directed against bolshevism - i.e., communism - but they used that as a code word for jews.

I wonder what "nazi" might come to be a code word for in these countries, that are so fervent about prosecuting "nazis" and "nazism" ?

Nalikill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:12 am

Hemi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:59 pm
A game of combined arms warfare cannot confront the ugly side of WW2 and Nazism because that side didn't occur on the battlefield. It's better left out if you can't deal with it appropriately.

Not to mention in many countries the game could not be sold if you included the symbols.

Countries that love nazis so much that they don't want to see them mocked and criticized, and doesn't want their true ugly side exposed to the world... why do we care about them again?

I know that's not the intention, I just find it ironic that they're falling into the same rhetorical traps that the Nazis loved to lay so much. The "double-talk" of nazism was one of the core ways it managed to be so radical and spread so far. Most of its language was directed against bolshevism - i.e., communism - but they used that as a code word for jews.

I wonder what "nazi" might come to be a code word for in these countries, that are so fervent about prosecuting "nazis" and "nazism" ?

One country that has very strict laws on portraying Nazi symbols etc. Is Germany - IIRC if a game has SS or even their insignia in a game it's banned. It's not because they love the Nazis.

EDIT: Removed off topic discussion and deliberately antagonistic discussion.

Horseman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:08 am
One country that has very strict laws on portraying Nazi symbols etc. Is Germany - IIRC if a game has SS or even their insignia in a game it's banned. It's not because they love the Nazis.

Quoting myself-

I know that's not the intention, I just find it ironic that they're falling into the same rhetorical traps that the Nazis loved to lay so much. The "double-talk" of nazism was one of the core ways it managed to be so radical and spread so far. Most of its language was directed against bolshevism - i.e., communism - but they used that as a code word for jews.

Horseman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:08 am

Nalikill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:12 am

Hemi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:59 pm
A game of combined arms warfare cannot confront the ugly side of WW2 and Nazism because that side didn't occur on the battlefield. It's better left out if you can't deal with it appropriately.

Not to mention in many countries the game could not be sold if you included the symbols.

Countries that love nazis so much that they don't want to see them mocked and criticized, and doesn't want their true ugly side exposed to the world... why do we care about them again?

I know that's not the intention, I just find it ironic that they're falling into the same rhetorical traps that the Nazis loved to lay so much. The "double-talk" of nazism was one of the core ways it managed to be so radical and spread so far. Most of its language was directed against bolshevism - i.e., communism - but they used that as a code word for jews.

I wonder what "nazi" might come to be a code word for in these countries, that are so fervent about prosecuting "nazis" and "nazism" ?

One country that has very strict laws on portraying Nazi symbols etc. Is Germany - IIRC if a game has SS or even their insignia in a game it's banned. It's not because they love the Nazis.

Germany changed that practice recently from what I remember, it should be allowed here now in correct context.

gokkel wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:34 am

Germany changed that practice recently from what I remember, it should be allowed here now in correct context.

But a lot of companies (understandably) don't want to be the "test case" for that, and don't want to go on the bleeding edge of the law and potentially lose money fighting a legal battle to prove they're okay under the new law. The chilling effect of the suppression is still in place, and will be for a while, even if the law has changed.

Hemi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:59 pm A game of combined arms warfare cannot confront the ugly side of WW2 and Nazism because that side didn't occur on the battlefield.

Actually, it did. Everybody -including the Western Allies- occasionally murdered pows, pretty much everybody bombed civilians, then of course partisan and antipartisan warfare was very ugly etc.

sIg3b wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:54 pm

Hemi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:59 pm A game of combined arms warfare cannot confront the ugly side of WW2 and Nazism because that side didn't occur on the battlefield.

Actually, it did. Everybody -including the Western Allies- occasionally murdered pows, pretty much everybody bombed civilians, then of course partisan and antipartisan warfare was very ugly etc.

And don't forget all the rapings of civilians and pillaging.

KesaAnna wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:31 am ( I actually prefer Italian tanks , planes and such. And most people seem to think they suck. Aesthetics not withstanding ? )

IIrc, the Italian soldiers themselves thought their tanks sucked and nicknamed them "rolling coffins", but you are right, they look extremely cool, like pretty much most things designed by Italians.

gokkel wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:34 am Germany changed that practice recently from what I remember, it should be allowed here now in correct context.

This is true. Before, it was not clear if you could even depict a swastika in a history textbook.

Now you can, but it´s still not clear with a game. You might have to argue that Panzer Corps is a teaching tool and probably have better luck with that if it moved closer to being a simulation (which is what I happen to advocate).

sIg3b wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:12 pm

gokkel wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:34 am Germany changed that practice recently from what I remember, it should be allowed here now in correct context.

This is true. Before, it was not clear if you could even depict a swastika in a history textbook.

The practice was changed, that is true, but depicitions of swastikas were allowed for education or art, so a school book was not a problem. The problem was the definition of art, since computer games did not count as art.

Nalikill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:38 am

gokkel wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:34 am

Germany changed that practice recently from what I remember, it should be allowed here now in correct context.

But a lot of companies (understandably) don't want to be the "test case" for that, and don't want to go on the bleeding edge of the law and potentially lose money fighting a legal battle to prove they're okay under the new law. The chilling effect of the suppression is still in place, and will be for a while, even if the law has changed.

Back in the day, ( ie. before I was at Slitherine) we had a game release delayed in Germany and it nearly cost us the company since at the time, Germany was our second biggest market. It was a Battle of the Bulge game and had a lot of historical information in it. There was educational as well as entertainment context which, even 10 years ago, should of been ok on all accounts.

But we'd already been warned by Apple so had to remove all mention of Hitler ( so we couldn't say that Wacht am Rein was his plan ) and we had to remove all reference to the SS ( we actually missed the unit counters which thankfully were never flagged up ), any SS symbolism, icons, unit badges etc. But they still delayed the German launch by 2 weeks, never gave us a reason, apology or asked for anything to be changed, but it was enough for us to miss the initial sales curve and the game just never recovered. Subsequent games simply avoided any such issues.

So no. No company wants to be the first.

MickMannock wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:59 pm

sIg3b wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:54 pm

Hemi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:59 pm A game of combined arms warfare cannot confront the ugly side of WW2 and Nazism because that side didn't occur on the battlefield.

Actually, it did. Everybody -including the Western Allies- occasionally murdered pows, pretty much everybody bombed civilians, then of course partisan and antipartisan warfare was very ugly etc.

And don't forget all the rapings of civilians and pillaging.

it gets far far uglier than that.

Hemi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:43 pm

MickMannock wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:59 pm

sIg3b wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:54 pm

Actually, it did. Everybody -including the Western Allies- occasionally murdered pows, pretty much everybody bombed civilians, then of course partisan and antipartisan warfare was very ugly etc.

And don't forget all the rapings of civilians and pillaging.

it gets far far uglier than that.

Uglier than Coventry, Katyn, Dresden, Malmedy, Hiroshima, etc etc? I don´t think so.

pewp3w wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:34 pm The practice was changed, that is true, but depicitions of swastikas were allowed for education or art, so a school book was not a problem. The problem was the definition of art, since computer games did not count as art.

I see. So they didn´t understand the concept of infotainment.

sIg3b wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:52 pmI see. So they didn´t understand the concept of infotainment.

Germany has struggled with this ever since the war -- the whole talking about the Nazi atrocities but not actually talking about the Nazis or their symbols is a flawed if understandable position, but I don't believe forcibly supressing selective parts of a chequered past is a good idea, if only because it makes it easier for conspiracy loons. At least they are trying to face the realities of the war. Compare this to with the Japanese, most of whom are oblivious to the atrocities comitted by the Imperial Army as the government does not allow it to be taught in schools; then again most members of said government deny the atrocities ever took place, so go figure.

But I think this is veering too much towards a political discussion now.

sIg3b wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:48 pm

Hemi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:43 pm

MickMannock wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:59 pm

And don't forget all the rapings of civilians and pillaging.

it gets far far uglier than that.

Uglier than Coventry, Katyn, Dresden, Malmedy, Hiroshima, etc etc? I don´t think so.

Yes, uglier than that (except perhaps Hiroshima). Way uglier

Hemi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:32 pm

sIg3b wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:48 pm

Hemi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:43 pm

it gets far far uglier than that.

Uglier than Coventry, Katyn, Dresden, Malmedy, Hiroshima, etc etc? I don´t think so.

Yes, uglier than that (except perhaps Hiroshima). Way uglier