Slitherine

Here is a mid '44 Panzer Division. In italics is the '43 scenario unit version.

1 Panzer IVJ (from Panzer IVH tank)
1 Panther G tank (from Panther A tank)

1 Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
3 Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

1 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
1 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
1 Hummel self-propelled artillery (from Wespe self-propelled artillery)

1 Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track or Opel Blitz Truck)
1 StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
1 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) anti-air
1 SdKfz 234/1 8Rad recon (from SdKfz 232 8Rad recon)

The truck/halftrack for pioneres is unresolved. I've upgraded the Wespe to Hummel but that's provisional. I chose the SdKfz 234/1 recon over the 234/2 due to it being more widely produced.

the_iron_duke wrote:Some thoughts on German armoured cars.

I can't find the numbers built for the SdKfz 232 8Rad but I think it was widely used and so that is the recon chosen for this scenario. Deciding what to use for the mid '44 NW Europe scenario is a bit more problematic. I've read that the 232 and 233 ceased production in 1943 as they were superceded by the 'Puma' (234/2). Pumas weren't produced in that great a number, though. Maybe 234/1 is the best option.

Sd.Kfz 231 + 232 8rad - 600
Sd.Kfz. 263 8rad - 240
Panzer II F - a little over 500

Actually, by far the most common armoured reconnaissance vehicle was the Sd.Kfz 250 halftrack. Speaking of which, if you are still doubting about the engineers, I would just give them a halftrack.

British: they received over 17.000 Shermans, and converted about 2200 of them into Fireflies. All Churchills built total around 7.500 tanks (300 went to USSR), Cromwells 4.000 + about 100 Centaurs.

In 1944 about 20% of UK Shermans were Fireflies, late in the war almost 50%, as the normal Shermans were displaced by Cromwells and Comets. Also note that Sherman deliveries went down during 1944, so the ratio between Shermans and Churchills/Cromwells would have changed more quickly than the British tank production numbers would suggest.

USA: the various Sherman types are poorly represented in the game, I'm afraid. 76mm deliveries started very late, most units were lucky to have some, they were about as common as the 105mm version. Are you going to add light tanks (M5 Stuart) as well?

Light tanks are incorporated in smaller amounts within other battalion types like tank battalions and recon battalions at company or platoon level and so don't warrant their own battalion-sized unit.

Perhaps for the German pionieres, those in panzer divisions could be in half-tracks and those in infantry divisions in trucks. US engineers to have half-tracks, British and Soviet ones in trucks is how I think I'll play it.

Here are some comparisons of the points cost between the tank contingent of a '44 German panzer division compared with the various combinations that can be made with the British and American armoured divisions:

Panzer IVJ + Panther G = 1190 points

3 x Cromwell Mk VII = 1266 points
3 x Sherman Mk. I = 1152 points
2 x Sherman Mk. I + 1 x Sherman Firefly = 1369
2 x Sherman Mk. I + 1 x Cromwell Mk VII = 1190 points

3 x M4 Sherman = 1164 points
3 x M4A3 = 1218 points
2 x M4A3 + 1 x M4A1(76)W = 1368 points

I read this:

The M4A1(76) was the first model to enter production in January 1944. 156 of the first units were sent to the UK for familiarization. They evoked little interest from armored commanders whose troopers had been training for the Invasion for many months with M4 & M4A1(75)s. Confrontations with heavy German armor in Normandy aroused interest in the "orphan" M4A1(76)s sitting idle in England, and General Bradley ordered that they be shipped to France to take part in First Army's upcoming Operation Cobra. 120 were evenly distributed to the 2nd and 3rd Armored Divisions, & first entered combat in late July 1944. http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minu ... rrets.html

I'm thinking that that would make them less suitable for the mid '44 scenario.

So that just leaves three options: M4 Sherman, M4A1 and M4A3.

Here are their relative points costs:

M4 Sherman - 388
M4A1 - 394
M4A3 - 406

The M4A1 has only 4 movement which makes it less attractive.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: My thinking is that if one takes the M4A2 and the M4A4 (which were produced in numbers but are not represented in the game), adds them up and divides them by two one gets the M4A3. So I am favouring three M4A3s for the US Armoured Division, mid '44.

Here are the points costs of the formations I have modelled for the game:

Panzer Division (late '43)
Total units: 13 (cost=4014)

Panzer Division (mid '44)
Total units: 13 (cost=4173)*

Soviet Guards Mechanized Corps (late '43)
Total units: 15 (cost=3944)

British Armoured Division (mid '44)
Total units: 13 (cost=3773)**

U.S. Armoured Division (mid '44)
Total units: 13 (cost=3768)***

* If the Germans use Wespe not Hummel the points go down to 4091.
** The British are using the 2 Shermans, 1 Cromwell tank combo.
*** The Americans are using the M4A3 tank trio.

For the post-Normandy scenario I might use one British Armoured Division and one U.S. Armoured Division against two Panzer Divisions. Both the Eastern Front '43 and Western Front '44 orders of battle can be transferred to play on other maps. A next, more ambitious project would be to have a full corps of three divisions for each opposing army. Then there are mixes that can be created by combining armoured and infantry divisions. Lots of possibilities.

Here are the orders of battle of the five formations I've modelled. I decided to keep Wespes for the '44 German army as the self-propelled artillery battalions of the time were 2/3 Wespe, 1/3 Hummel and I think giving them Hummels would make the Panzer Divisions a lot more powerful in terms of artillery than the other formations in the game.

German Panzer Division (late '43)





1 x Panther A tank
1 x Panzer IVH tank

1 x Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
3 x Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

1 x Wespe self-propelled artillery
1 x 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
1 x 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery

1 x SdKfz 232 8Rad recon
1 x StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
1 x 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) anti-air
1 x Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track) engineers

Total: 13 units, 4,014 points

Soviet Guards Mechanized Corps (late '43)





2 x T-34/43 tanks

6 x Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)

1 x SU-76 self-propelled artillery
1 x 122mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
1 x 76.2mm M1942 (w/ Truck) towed artillery

1 x BA-64 recon
1 x SU-85 self-propelled anti-tank
1 x 37mm M1939 (w/ Truck) anti-air
1 x Soviet Eng 43 infantry (w/ Truck)

Total: 15 units, 3,944 points

German Panzer Division (mid '44)





1 x Panther G tank
1 x Panzer IVJ

1 x Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
3 x Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

1 x Wespe self-propelled artillery
1 x 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
1 x 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery

1 x SdKfz 234/1 8Rad recon
1 x StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
1 x 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) anti-air
1 x Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track) engineers

Total: 13 units, 4,091 points

British Armoured Division (mid '44)





1 x Cromwell Mk. VII tank
2 x Sherman Mk. I tank

1 x 43 British HW (w/ Bren Carrier)
3 x 43 British Infantry (w/ Lorry)

1 x Sexton self-propelled artillery
1 x QF 25 pounder (w/ Quad) towed artillery

1 x Daimler AC recon
1 x Achilles self-propelled anti-tank
1 x 40 mm Bofors anti-aircraft gun (w/ Lorry)
1 x Engineer 43 (w/ Lorry)

Total: 13 units, 3,773 points

United States Armored Division (mid '44)





3 x M4A3 tank

3 x US Infantry 43 (w/ M3 Halftrack)

3 x M7 Priest self-propelled artillery

1 x M8 Greyhound recon
1 x M18 Hellcat self-propelled anti-tank
1 x M16 MGMC self-propelled anti-air
1 x US Engineers 43 (w/ M3 Halftrack)

Total: 13 units, 3,768 points

I have thought of one flaw in the game rules. Although one cannot purchase units with a zero core limit, one is still able to upgrade existing units. This is where the "gentleman's agreement" will have to come in. Since each player knows each other's army composition and order of battle one should be able to spot if it's happened.

The only possible way round it I can think of is to change the game year to 1938 or something but that's probably getting a bit silly.

I will have to put a disclaimer in the rules that both players by playing the scenario are agreeing to its terms and conditions and that if they are caught cheating the mandatory punishment is death. Sorry, being reported in the scenario's thread as someone who has cheated in the game.

It would be good if in a future scenario editor a setting is included to disable unit upgrades.

Since, I've been getting off-topic, I've summarised the things that need to be resolved before the Eastern Front '43 scenario can be completed:

1) Days/turns

To have 2 turns a day with the weather changing every turn is this correct?

Days per turn: 0
Turns per day: 2

2) Weather/moisture level

I've increased the odds of bad weather from 25% to 36%.

18% Cloudy
12% Rain
6% Snow

I'm still not quite sure what a default setting for moisture is. I'd like it at the default or slightly wetter than the default. I currently have it set as '1'.

3) Prestige per turn

This is what I wrote earlier in the thread.

the_iron_duke wrote: So, next is the crucial prestige per turn value. I think it would be important to get the prestige per turn setting right for a 0-limit core game as if incoming prestige were too high then the idea of cautiously preserving units would become too much of an issue - slightly damaged units would be withdrawn from the front line for fear of losing them. So there is a balance to be found between too much prestige and too little prestige where the game doesn't last as long as it might.

If the armies are 13,000 points then to earn half those points (6,500) would take 26 turns at 250 points per turn (a couple of turns less with the captured flags windfall first time round). It would be 43 turns at 150 points per turn (three turns less for captured flags).

I'm not quite sure how long I expect the scenario to go on for - it could be a fast-paced clash where both sides charge at each other and there's heavy fighting all along the front until one army breaks. Or it could be a slower-paced strategic game with defensive strong points held and the seeking of exploiting enemy weak points. Perhaps it might be either against different players or in different games. So it will be best to pick a points per turn value that works for both these eventualities.

If any experienced multiplayer game players are reading and have any idea then advice appreciated.

4) The PZLOC file

I've filled in some details in the PZLOC file. Is this enough?

IDS_SCEN_NAME [Scenario name]
IDS_SCEN_DESCRIPTION Germany vs USSR, late 1943 - a multiplayer skirmish game
IDS_SCEN_SIDE1 German
IDS_SCEN_SIDE2 Soviet
IDS_SCEN_AXIS_CAM_OBJECTIVES
IDS_SCEN_AXIS_SCN_OBJECTIVES Capture flags - when the Soviets have seven flags or less they are defeated.
IDS_SCEN_ALLIED_CAM_OBJECTIVES
IDS_SCEN_ALLIED_SCN_OBJECTIVES Capture flags - when the Germans have seven flags or less they are defeated.

IDS_SCN_OUTCOME0 Axis Victory
IDS_SCN_OUTCOME1 Allied Victory
IDS_SCN_OUTCOME2 Axis Victory
IDS_SCN_OUTCOME3 Allied Victory

5) Custom strings

I still have lots of hex "should have custom strings" messages in the validate scenario feature.

I was playing the scenario against myself when in the 6th turn it suddenly went to the Panzer Corps menu screen. No Victory screen just straight to the Menu screen.

the_iron_duke wrote:I was playing the scenario against myself when in the 6th turn it suddenly went to the Panzer Corps menu screen. No Victory screen just straight to the Menu screen.

Did this happen before as well, or did it suddenly start crashing? What are your victory conditions? If you want me to take a quick look you can upload (attach) it so I can review it with the scenario editor.

No, it's just happened once. I've continued from the autosave and have played a few more turns. It could possibly be a memory related thing as my computer's getting a bit full with less available virtual memory and I had a few applications running. But it wasn't a crash-to-desktop just a possible "crash"-to-menu.

You can have a look at the scenario when I've finished tying up the loose ends.

I'm playing against the computer to try and get an idea of how much prestige to give. I've got it set at 250 per turn at the moment. I've been going for normal replacements rather than elite as since it's a single scenario, rather than a campaign, it would seem to make sense as the logical thing to do. Is this the correct assumption?

Non-elite replacements are very cheap and so I'm thinking of reducing the turn prestige income. It's turn 9 and I have 2513 prestige.

I'm sorry, I thought you implied your game crashed on the 6th turn multiple times, so I assumed it wasn't a random crash.

I wouldn't worry too much about the exact weather and turn settings yet, the prestige settings are much more important. As soon as you are happy, you can always start tweaking weather etc.

About prestige income: I think the nature of the map plays a role, and if it takes several turns for the battle to really start, you can build up a nice buffer of prestige. It would also depend on the size and cost of the forces involved, and you have very few really expensive units, of course. If your armies are 4000pr each, maybe 40-80pr per turn would be better?

About reinforcements: Especially if every unit starts with 0 exp, than 'green' replacements would be my default choice.

Thanks for the info.

ThvN wrote:If your armies are 4000pr each, maybe 40-80pr per turn would be better?

That figure is the approximate cost of a single German/British/U.S. armoured division or Soviet Guards Mechanized Division. The scenario is currently set at having two divisions/corps + attached units + aircraft = c. 13,000 points per side. I am seriously considering going straight for a corps-level game by adding an extra division/Soviet corps to each side.That would bring the total number of units in the scenario to about 110-120.

As well as adding an extra division to each army I'm thinking of doubling the number of aircraft. Do you think this is a good or bad idea? Unit balance would become this:

Germans: 46 ground units/12 air units
Russians: 57 ground units/12-14 air units

The make-up would be,

Germans: 6 fighters, 3 tactical bombers, 3 strategic bombers
Soviets: 6-8 fighters, 3 tactical bombers, 3 strategic bombers

I'd also add an attached self-propelled AA ground unit to each army.

I've found a workaround for the upgrading issue. I set the year to '0' and the units can't upgrade, so I'll do something along these lines.

I've also finished my corps-level armies and I have to say they look awesome! 61 units vs 72 units, over 21,000 points each side. I'll post them tomorrow...

Behold the final and ultimate order of battle. The Germans now represent a full Panzerkorps of three Panzer Divisions with attached supporting units and aircraft. The Soviets now represent a full Army Group (?) of three Soviet Guards Mechanized Corps with attached supporting units and aircraft.

The number of aircraft has doubled. The ground units' points between the two sides are similar as are the air units' points. The Soviets have two extra fighters, but if the German Bf110G tactical bombers are counted as fighters (as they are capable in air-to-air combat) the fighter points totals are also similar.

GERMAN FORCES



1st Panzer Division [1.]:

1 x Panther A tank
1 x Panzer IVH tank

1 x Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
3 x Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

1 x Wespe self-propelled artillery
1 x 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
1 x 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery

1 x SdKfz 232 8Rad recon armoured car
1 x StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
1 x 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed anti-air
1 x Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track) engineers

2nd Panzer Division [2.]: (Same as 1st Panzer Division)

3rd Panzer Division [3.]: (Same as 1st Panzer Division)

Attached supporting units [U./Unterstellt]:

1 x Tiger I heavy-tank

1 x Panzerwerfer 42 self-propelled artillery
2 x 21 cm Mrs 18 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy artillery

1 x SdKfz 7/2 self-propelled anti-air
2 x 8.8 cm FlaK 36 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy anti-air

1 x Fallschirmjager 43 paratrooper
1 x Bruckenpioniere (w/ Opel Blitz truck) bridge engineer
1 x Kradschutzen motorcycle

Aircraft [L./Luftwaffe]:

4 x Messerschmitt Bf 109G fighter
2 x Focke-Wulf Fw 190A fighter

2 x Messerschmitt Bf 110G tactical bomber
1 x Junkers Ju 87G tactical bomber

2 x Junkers 88A strategic bomber
1 x Heinkel He 177A strategic bomber

Total: 61 units, 21,113 points

SOVIET FORCES



1st Guards Mechanized Corps [1.]:

2 x T-34/43 tanks

6 x Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)

1 x SU-76 self-propelled artillery
1 x 122mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
1 x 76.2mm M1942 (w/ Truck) towed artillery

1 x SU-85 self-propelled anti-tank
1 x 37mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed anti-air
1 x BA-64 recon
1 x Soviet Eng 43 infantry (w/ Truck)

2nd Guards Mechanized Corps [2.]: (same as 1st Guards Mechanized Corps)

3rd Guards Mechanized Corps [3.]: (same as 1st Guards Mechanized Corps)

Attached supporting units [O./Otdeljat]:

1 x IS-1 heavy tank
1 x SU-152 heavy tank destroyer
1 x SU-122 assault gun

2 x BM-13 Katyusha self-propelled artillery
2 x 152mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed heavy artillery

1 x T-90 SPAAG self-propelled anti-air
2 x 85mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed heavy anti-air

1 x Para 43 paratrooper
1 x Soviet BridgEng (w/ Truck) bridge engineer
1 x Soviet cavalry

Aircraft [V./Voyenno-Vozdushnye Sily]:

4 x Lavochkin La-5 fighter
4 x Yakovlev Yak-9D fighter

2 x Il-2 Shturmovik tactical bomber
1 x Petlyakov Pe-2 tactical bomber

2 x Ilyushin Il-4 strategic bomber
1 x Petlyakov Pe-8 strategic bomber

Total: 72 units, 21,166 points

Here are the armies in their "chess-like" initial deployment state (NOTE: on the actual map they won't be so close!):

Here are the armies limbered up: